The Bootstrapped Founder

Arvid Kahl
Welcome to The Bootstrapped Founder, episode 250. Wow. Today, I'm talking to Amanda Goetz: marketer, creator, educator and all round inspiring person to be around. Amanda shares her insights about the importance of rest and how the hustle culture around us has been eroding a more nuanced and balanced approach to building a legacy. We chat about monetizing the creator economy, what it means to find a niche and then stand out in it. And if she's writing a book or not, maybe. A quick shout out to our sponsor, acquire.com. More on that later. Now, here's Amanda.

Amanda, thanks for being on the show. You very recently quit your job to become a full time creator. How did you know that that was the right time to make that move?

Amanda Goetz
Yeah, so about a year ago, I sold my startup, which I had been doing for a few years. And that was started during the pandemic, which was very much like survival mode fight or flight. I was, you know, homeschooling three kids, going through a divorce and started my startup. So, you know, there was a lot going on at the time. And I sold my company and really out of and the sale was not like this crazy, lucrative sale, like it was truly like the right move for the company, the right move for me. And I needed stability. And that's what I was looking for. So I took the first real job opportunity that came across my plate. And it was an amazing opportunity to just kind of sit back and do some work. But like, there wasn't a lot of growth opportunity. It was just a VP of marketing position. It was great. And I did that for eight months, but three months in, I said to my therapist, it's like, I forgot how I can't work for other people. And I also forgot how I can't work for large companies because I am used to, like execution and shipping something and learning and moving like I've been a founder now twice. And all of the like red tape and politics. Like just I don't mesh well with it. And so that kick started this conversation of what are my values for this next season of life. And I realized autonomy and financial freedom were big ones, but also connecting with people. And I have a lot of things that I love talking about. And I want to connect with people on a deeper level. And so that started to lead into, well, what does it look like to be a content creator? Now I'll be the first to say like Justin Walsh just tweeted this. And he was like, now you tell me. He's like don't quit your job unless you have like all your revenue streams lined up.

Arvid Kahl
Right

Amanda Goetz
And so I'm a cautionary tale, but I feel like I have enough proof of concepts. Maybe some little bit of product market fit given my audience, but I've never monetize my audience. I've never actually figured out how to so there's gonna be a lot of learning here. But we're gonna see what happens.

Arvid Kahl
Well, I'm excited to watch the journey because you're sharing it in public too, which is kind of part of the creator life, right? You're gonna have to build your creator brand in public. And you're doing this pretty well. Interesting that you haven't thought about monetization before or at least not, you know, like enough to warrant having validation there. So what exactly did you have in mind, in terms of like, what kind of content to create if monetization wasn't a goal? Like, what did you actually want to do? Who did you want to help?

Amanda Goetz
So it's interesting, everybody that I talked to over the last couple of years, when I told them, you know, I want to start a newsletter. I want to write about kind of being the antidote to hustle culture because that's really what I believe in. I believe that, I mean, look, I'll share it very transparently. Part of the reason that led to my divorce is my partner, he's a very ambitious person. But that was his priority. And I was home with the kids. And it was very imbalanced. And I think that, you know, he would probably say the same thing that the divorce forced him to realize like, he was imbalanced and he's an amazing dad and the kids now have their dad 50% of the time and he's very present with them. And I just think that so many people wait until this wake up call happens to rebalance and I just really feel passionately about that. So that's what I want to talk about. What's everybody kept telling me is like, when you go broad that's so hard to make money. You need to stay in your lane, your niche, where you've built your audience, which I built my audience as being a CMO and building brands and marketing. So as I step into this creator world, I'm balancing those two things, what I'm passionate about and what my expertise is in. And that's where I'm playing and figuring out is, is it an and not an or. And I think that I'm starting to tiptoe into how to make that work.

Arvid Kahl
How stay in your lane conversation, that's been something that I've experienced a couple times before. And it always sucks, right? When people tell you to not move into another field. Like did you kind of, I can only tell you from my own experience here, I guess. But I had to give myself permission to become a creator. How was it for you?

Amanda Goetz
Yes, yes. Full, yes. The idea, two things I've had to work through: taking up space and believing you deserve that space. And this is now something that I write about. I call it cringe valley, where you are in this valley where you feel just like, oh, this is yucky. I'm talking about myself. This just feels gross. And then slowly, you start to like, climb out of this valley and realize, like, oh, by me saying this thing connected to this person and gave them the motivation or the permission themselves to do this thing. And so you slowly climb out of that. That's number one. And then the second thing that I'm still working through, which is the whole, taking people's money for this thing and really like, I've been working with this guy who works with a lot of content creators. And he said to me, he's like, do you believe what you say is valuable? I'm like, of course, like, that's why I do it. I think, you know, people find value in it. He's like, then why don't you believe that in like your core that it has value? Like, monetarily, you put emotional value on it, but not monetary value. And so I think that as a creator, you have to kind of do more of that internal work that gets you prepared to do that, like external stuff.

Arvid Kahl
So anything that you can share with me, because I struggle with that too, finding value in the work that I do. I know it's valuable, kind of, but I don't want to put a number on it. Like, how did you work that through internally?

Amanda Goetz
One is just watching other people charge for things that you know you have so much more experience and value and it's truly just saying like, someone is going if they're looking for this, they're going to go to someone. Do you believe that you can solve their problem uniquely or more empathetically or just like adding more value? And if you do, you're doing them a service because their goal, if they are looking for how to build a personal brand or how to start a newsletter, whatever it is, they're gonna go find it. Someone's going to deliver it to them, why not you? And that's the part that's like, oh, yeah, why can't that be me? And kind of giving yourself that space to kind of step into it and expand and say, I deserve. I have this experience. I've been doing this for now 20 years, like I can teach something to somebody that's looking for it. So I think it's that whole like push versus pull. Like I feel icky when I'm like, just like pushing something to people. But if somebody's looking for the thing I'm providing, then I'm meeting their need, which is just a different reframe for me.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah. So the demand kind of mindset, I think, like Justin Jackson talked about, like surfing the wave, existing demand, right? Like, if there's something out there. If people want it and you have it, why don't you give it to them? And why don't you give it to them in a compensatory way? That's an interesting way to think about this. And I think the problem with my experience and I think with a lot of other creators or people who are kind of more aspirational creators, is that they just think that what they know is not enough, right? That there's this kind of everybody already knows that. How do you find that? Because people have been talking a lot about taking breaks and productivity being a balanced and that kind of stuff. But I know you have a unique perspective. But how do you know that you have a unique perspective?

Amanda Goetz
Well, I think part of it is also just understanding that it's 2023. And we've been now on social media, like are there that many unique perspectives? And that's honestly like, maybe this is a contrarian take but like, I have 1000 books around my house. It's all just a different flavor of the same meal and figuring out what your flavoring is and saying I can serve the same meal. It's just going to have a different flavor. What is that flavor? Your flavor might be, you have a different experience set, you have a different personality set, you have a different life scenario, like those can all be your seasonings to your meal. But it might still be the same chicken that everybody's serving. So I think getting past the fact that you have to cook like a steak and serve it to everybody when everybody's serving chicken.

Arvid Kahl
That's a really, really great way of expressing this, like, there's nothing wrong with being an alternative to something that already exists. Because there are people out there that are unhappy with the thing as it exists right now. Right? Like that's what I think like Pieter Levels had this wonderful tweet recently, where he had like 20 books, that all kind of looked the same, but they were all like productivity books and they all kind of had the same message. But each one of these books is the perfect version of that thought for somebody in that audience, right?

Amanda Goetz
Like, who I will speak to about productivity will be so different than how Matt Gray will speak to someone about productivity. And Matt Gray may rub somebody the wrong way and that person will gravitate towards me. And I may rub somebody the wrong way. And they'll gravitate towards Matt. Like, it's a very real thing where you're going to find the people that you resonate with and it's totally okay. Like, there's so many people talking productivity. A lot of people could say, Amanda, you're literally talking about, it's like, well, my unique scenario is like, I'm a single mom. I have three kids. I've, you know, launch two companies and I do it all while trying to like maintain and not burnout. So I think that that's my flavor. And that might not be for everybody.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, and it is very specific, right? The overlapping Venn diagram of all the things that you are, there's like five different things overlapping in one person, that's you. Like, I don't know anybody like you who is talking about the things that you talk about, right? And so that makes you like, just stand out by design by overlapping all these different parts of your identity, which is why I find it so interesting that people want you against going broad. You're not, like you are still specific, right?

Amanda Goetz
Yeah. It's interesting because there's this like productivity angle, but then there's the CMO marketing angle. And then let's just like let's get into maybe a little bit of semantics here with like newsletters. Finding a sponsor who wants to talk to marketers is so much easier than saying, we have a bunch of people who are kind of type a high performing people that are looking to not burn out, like, it's just a little harder to find that like one to one with a sponsorship. Whereas like B2B, there is a lot of money in the space. There's a lot of SaaS companies trying to get in front of marketers, so it's an easier sell. So I do agree with everyone that said that to me, they said the fastest path to monetization will be for you to stay in a marketing niche. But at some point, your niche caps out where you watch people who they've been in a niche for so long and they're trying to like add now a new vertical to their offerings. So it's just a matter of like, which positioning you want to take and your entry point. Now, like I said, I think I'm going to, as I step into this world, I've got the newsletter. It's my like path, it gives me so much energy to write every week. I love it. But I'm going to have to also figure out, like, my monetization structure around marketing and so that's going to be probably the "and".

Arvid Kahl
Well, yeah, as a creator, you will very quickly have to figure that out to become profitable with that, but that's the fun part I feel. Like I honestly, my journey with the blog and the newsletter, the podcast and whatever has been just trying out different things, seeing which ones work. And writing has been always enjoyable writing books, like is that something in your future to actually, like, turn your regular cadence of writing into something more tangible that can be monetized? Is that a plan? Is it somewhere in there?

Amanda Goetz
Yes. So yes, I will share some news but yes, so you heard it here first that that is definitely something in the works, learning the book process. Holy moly! Like it's definitely always been a bucket list thing. I love to write. I love to like story tell. But spoiler alert, you're not doing that for money. Like

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, no

Amanda Goetz
No, this is truly like a passion led thing that you believe you want. You have a unique thing aspect is to tell but yeah, I was in New York last week. I submitted a proposal about a month ago and met with three literary agents and I'm doing that whole process right now.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that's fun. I'm in the proposal stage for my third one right now, like I'm working

Amanda Goetz
We need to chat

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, I think you need to

Amanda Goetz
What's your biggest piece of advice as I head into, so I did the like mini proposal to get an agent, got an agent secured, love my agent. And then now head into for anyone that doesn't know, it's like, they told me like a four to six month proposal process

Arvid Kahl
So bad

Amanda Goetz
That you gotta get this thing buttoned up to sell to a publisher. So what advice do you have about that, like proposal process?

Arvid Kahl
Well, it's also the very first time that I'm in that process even though I've already written two books. The first two that I wrote was self published. So I skipped all of this. So my advice is, I'm not going to give you any advice because I'm not going to tell you

Amanda Goetz
I'm going to be like, wait, what has happened to me?

Arvid Kahl
Maybe the piece of advice that I can kind of, you know, like, just have ricochet off me from the people that I talked to, who've done this a couple of times in the past, is just be extremely patient and don't expect this to go, like fast or at all, right? This is a multi year process. The writing part comes at a super late stage, which is the exact opposite of my experience from writing the other two books because I wrote them first. And then it was like, I have books now. I should sell them. Then I sold them, right? That's how it worked for me. So it's completely different now.

Amanda Goetz
I'm learning so much about this whole process, like, I'm a marketer. So I think about the hook first, how I would take it to market, what's the like angle? And they were like, oh, no, you'll write the title last. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, it's just a whole different ballgame for sure. But okay, we'll keep sharing our tips.

Arvid Kahl
Let's just keep roasting the process that is so weird.

Amanda Goetz
So weird

Arvid Kahl
The weirdest part in all of this to me has been, how almost analytical they are looking into the prospects of a book, like what does it compare to? What sold a lot? Can you write a book just like this? I guess it's such a weird, I mean, it's also kind of a demand forward thinking, right? Like, they think, okay, this is selling. We need to write something that works like this. In many ways, that's actually quite smart compared to, I have this big book idea, let me write it. But it's very different.

Amanda Goetz
I went in thinking, you know, I wanted to write a book for men and women. Then they get into the stats and they're, like, 80% of women or 80% of buyers of this category are women. And I'm like, but yeah, but my audience is pretty balanced. And I'm like, well, I don't want to just to women. They're like, it's going to sell better. And like, it's going to have a better hook and an angle and easier for publishers to like, fit it in. So it's really fascinating the business side of books and how the way I've had to like frame it in my mind is that I'm going to show up with clay and then agent, publisher, editor, like, they will shape it into what it's going to become.

Arvid Kahl
Which for a creator feels like giving up all your agency to somebody else, right?

Amanda Goetz
It's really interesting, like, we'll have to do like, check in like a part two of podcast when we get because the other like analogy that I keep feeling is like going to VCs, like going to a publisher, it's very much like, you have to know what they care about, know what they are, like their thesis is and what's going to sell. And then there's this like hype thing. And I did this with the agents too, where I got contracts from the first two agents or no, I got contracts from the second two. I met with three. So two and three gave me contracts. One was still like, I need to like I mean, just understand the angle a little bit more. And then that person was following along on Instagram and saw like all I was like going to a lot of meetings. And then they followed up and then wanted to give a contract. And I was like this is just like VCs, like, it's just hype and momentum and they don't want to miss something. So it's all a game.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah. And that is something that and that's kind of the topic I want to pivot this conversation to because it's really important to me. It's kind of interfering with authenticity, right? Like the fact that you have to play that game to be able to get that contract to land, well, measly funds that you will get paid in advance and then hopefully you'll sell enough to even win make that work. But yeah, but besides the monetary hilarity of selling your first book, it feels like you have to give up a lot of your agency as a creator, but also of your like, just authentic behavior to be able to play that game with these people. And that's something that I battle with a lot. Like in that particular activity of trying to write a book with a big publisher, I could easily self publish my third book. I know that. I could have written it already. But over the last couple of months, what I've been doing is writing a prospect with somebody who helps me write prospects so that then I can eventually write a sample chapter so that then I can eventually write the book, maybe

Amanda Goetz
What's driving that for you, since you've done it twice? So for me, I'll share my reason that I went to through an agent is it was truly imposter syndrome. And I needed someone else to validate that I could do this.

Arvid Kahl
Interesting

Amanda Goetz
That's where it came from. You've done it before, what's driving that?

Arvid Kahl
It's always impostor syndrome as well. That's always an undercurrent to everything I do. But in this case, it was really the curiosity of doing it in a different way. I just wanted to, maybe that's the most selfish thing in everything I've done. But I wanted to see my book at an airport somewhere. That's, you know

Amanda Goetz
All driven by ego.

Arvid Kahl
But it's like, I knew that self publishing. I would never be able to get it there unless I just take one with me and put it into the store at the airport

Amanda Goetz
Not for each other

Arvid Kahl
Doing it for the gram and for my friends. But it's really that's one of the reasons I wanted to give this more reach because I feel like I want to write about building in public. That's the topic of what I'm thinking about. And I want this to be a thing that is not just in our niche. I want to go abroad in the sense of I want to teach entrepreneurs and creators of all kinds, not just indie hackers, not just people from my little software enabled startup world, but anybody who has something to do. I want to allow them to do it with other people and in public, like step by step.

Amanda Goetz
I love that.

Arvid Kahl
So the idea is for that topic in particular. I wanted it to have more reach. And I wanted to get my book in airports.

Amanda Goetz
Yep. Yeah, it's funny because so when I was at the knot, they had this like, external coaching agency come in and they made us do this self assessment and was this like, all day thing. And then the next day, they came back with your results. And it was a personal needs, like what do you need to feel motivated at work? And there were only two of us that had attention as like the biggest one. And I felt so much shame. I was like, oh my God! That seems so icky. And the person helped reframe it because they were like, this is just information about how your internal wiring is composed to motivate you. And she was like, if you go to a workout class, when they say like, keep it up. Does that like keep you go? And I'm like, yes. Like when someone in a meeting is like, well, Amanda had this idea, I light up. You know, every part of me is like, yeah, I did. I did and I'll make 18 more like what do you need me to do? So it's not a bad thing. And I think there's a lot of shame in like, saying, like, yeah, I'd love to see my book in Barnes and Noble. Like I'm doing it because I want to see my daughters in Barnes and Noble with my like, going and finding my book.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah

Amanda Goetz
It was really cute when I signed the contract with the agent. I had my my oldest, like, click send and I was like, write a book. But yeah, like there's nothing wrong with saying that.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, I think attention is just the flipside of validation too, right? Like you want validation because that is something we all seek in all kinds of things in your personal lives, professional lives and all that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with this because honestly, I think it's highly motivational to just be consistent. I remember the first day I had my first subscriber on my newsletter and I knew I guess I'm gonna do this forever now because this person wants to read my stuff, right?

Amanda Goetz
It takes one email and I say this to everybody that emails me. I'm like this email keeps me going because it does like the fact that they read something and took the moment to like reply and say, I'm going to incorporate this but this meant so much, this was so timely. That's all I need to keep going.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, I've seen your share several of these over the last couple of weeks on Twitter as well, which is really cool to see. I'm so happy like I'm happy this is happening for you like that you are getting the attention you very much deserved with the newsletter. And that what you talk about in the newsletter is also not just inspirational, but actually life changing for people that literally flips the switch for allowing them to make significant changes. And I think what you've been talking about recently, taking breaks in particular is a topic that I have been just yelling at people with like just over the last couple years, having been through burnout multiple times. And having suffered a lot at the hands of my own mental health, you know, which and taking breaks such an important thing. I would love to hear your perspective on, are we taking enough breaks? Should be maybe taking more? Are we doing it right? Maybe that's the more interesting question.

Amanda Goetz
So I think let's talk about that last piece. Like, when people burn out, they think, well, I just need to sleep more. And I wrote about this where I was really burnt out when I had my three kids. And I was, you know, working full time. I had a team of 50 people. And so I just was, like, I just need to go to bed earlier. 8:30 turned into 8pm. And I just still never could catch up. So that sparked the like, well, what do I need to do here? And so I wrote about there's lots of different forms of rest. There's physical rest, there's mental rest, there's emotional rest, there's social rest, there's creative rest, there's lots of different types of rest. And if we don't get all of those in a different aspect and in different quantities, you're not fully rested. And so I think it's important to figure out what that looks like for you in both the micro and the macro parts of your life. And so I always start at the macro level. I say, okay, this year, I need to take one solo trip. That is always like, my first go to because solo trips give me a lot of different forms of rest, creative rest, emotional rest. I'll put my phone away. There's a lot there. But then in the micro, like, how do you create space for social and in your week. And in social rest, people are like, well, that's just getting away from people. It's like, no, it's actually means the opposite. It means going and being around somebody that fills you up and fills your cup and you leave feeling like we all know. When you walk away from a conversation, you either feel like pumped or depleted. And social rest is about putting boundaries on the latter and spending time with the former. So I don't think it's like self care. And all this stuff has become these like buzzy hot words. But for me, it's really about are you hitting these different aspects that you probably don't realize you need?

Arvid Kahl
I have many questions now because all of these things raised a couple of just memories from my own experience. But do you think it's different between people who are like highly introverted versus the more extroverted type?

Amanda Goetz
I think that the same seven still apply. How you get them might change, right? It's just like any objective. You make an objective and measure that objective with a key result like an OKR. But then you can come up with 30 different tactics to achieve that. And so depending on your personality, like, let's talk creative rest, for example. Creative rest is really centered around what is allowing you to stop doing the job you get paid for to perform and you're doing something else. To an extrovert, that might mean going to take a pottery class or, you know, going to an art gallery and exploring and taking a tour of something. To an introvert, that might mean a puzzle or doing a Lego set. But it's still saying no to the thing that you have to do and allowing space for something. And there's a really interesting fact that if you struggle to solve a problem, like if you're stuck on something, solving a different problem will unlock different parts of your brain that allows you to then go back and think of this in a different way. And so that's what creative rest is, is like, I'm a big Lego girl, like I love Lego set. And for me, like, I have one going almost all the time because that is like you need both of your hands. You need your brain. If you miss a step, you're fucked. Like you need to, like be focused. So I think there's lots of ways to achieve the types of rest.

Arvid Kahl
I like that perspective. It does remind me of Julia Cameron's, Artist's Way and the kind of artists state that she talks about in there, which I've tried many, many times in many different ways. And I think the most enjoyable ones has always been going to bookstores and just browsing back in the day when we could still go outside without fear of death. That was the good old days. You know, that is my way of doing this. I mean, I'm a miniature painter, so I'm pretty close to the Lego world in terms of just like tiny fiddly things.

Amanda Goetz
Oh, yeah

Arvid Kahl
Craft and stuff, you should see like the space behind this studio here is just all crafting gear. So

Amanda Goetz
Oh! That's fun!

Arvid Kahl
I can go there and just, you know, dive into not working, like within four seconds, which is why I built the studio in the basement. So I have everything nearby. It's important for me probably one of the most important kinds of rest because I don't get much like sleep rest because my puppy tells me when I get up every morning, you know. Your kids do a very similar thing, maybe even more intensely because there's a lot more responsibility there. But creative rest

Amanda Goetz
My partner has a dog and I'm pretty convinced the dog has more work than the kids because guess what? They go to bed, they stay in their bed and mine are old enough. But the dog gets up. And I'm like, is it gonna pee somewhere? Is it?

Arvid Kahl
Yeah. They can't talk, right? That's the big problem. They can't tell you what they need, can only look at you and whine Yeah. Ah, love my puppy. But it's been a different life honestly, like ever since we got a puppy and she's now a year and a half old. Like my life has changed in many different ways, right? Like dependency like this is a pretty, pretty huge impact on just the way I can structure my own life.

Amanda Goetz
But it's such a cool thing when your life which was so I'll speak for myself myopically focused on myself and my stress

Arvid Kahl
Yeah

Amanda Goetz
And now all of a sudden, my lens has shifted and it's opened up to care about these other people's lives. And it's so freeing because we spend so much time thinking about like, our stuff and we get so caught up in it. And I'm like, oh, now I have to like, deal with three other people's lives. And they're like, what's causing them stress and it's kind of freeing for me.

Arvid Kahl
I really enjoy that perspective, like hearing you tell me this. And I just witnessed the exact same thing last week. I've been spending the whole of last week in Toronto, like where my girlfriend works. And we took the puppy over. So it was just there in her tiny little apartment with the puppy. And I took the whole week off pretty much from work. The only thing I did was like put up a camera, put up a microphone and record like 20 minutes or 29 minutes of my podcast, which I still needed to do because consistency is important. But everything else that week, I just didn't do much more than that. I just hung out with the dog, waited for Danielle to come home, like hang out with her and visit her at work, you know, just spend time with other people and other living beings. And it probably was one of the most refreshing and enjoyable things that I've done in a long while, like not thinking about myself and my Twitter following and my work and my book for a while was really, really freeing.

Amanda Goetz
And so now like the fact that that you uncovered that, that that was so recharging. Now you start to think through, okay, how can I do that every quarter? How does that look every month? What is the version of that that actually comes into my every day? And for me, it's like, that's the start of non negotiables. Right? That's you become aware. So for me, like I know that being active on social media can sometimes like cause my anxiety to go up because you feel this, me as a creator, you feel like everyone is allowed access to you. And when someone responds or retweets my stuff or provides like thoughtful response, I want to respond like I'm so grateful that they are supporting me and engaging in my conversation. But there's also like, you're one person and being on all the time. And so my non negotiable once I realized that I had some breaking points. And I would take, I would do like a social media detox. Earlier this year, I went on this like female founder, investor trip. We went to Italy and they took our phones and it was like, it was a lot more intense than we thought it was going to be. It was like, she would wake us up with a gong at five in the morning. And we had to go to this like, kind of temple-y chapel thing. And we had to do like two hours of morning yoga and meditation. It was pretty intense. And so I remember being like, that was the extreme version. But I felt so good afterwards that I needed to, what's the day to day non negotiable. And so I do a walk in the afternoon where I do not look at my phone and it's an hour and a half where I'm just like, the world shuts off. And that's kind of my little non negotiable way that I fulfill that need.

Arvid Kahl
Oh, that's great! Yeah, walks. I have to every day because I have this little being that needs to be walked around and that has changed my life too, like for health reasons to begin with. And it's nice to be able to incorporate this. I don't get seven days a week with the puppy. I know that's just not the normal life but having a little bit of that every day. That's kind of how I see this in my own life. That is really cool. That retreat phoneless very yoga and meditation, heavy retreat, that must have been fun.

Amanda Goetz
It was crazy. We thought we were going to go and drink wine and like

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that's Italy, right?

Amanda Goetz
And then we got there. And we're like, oh and like after it was all very healthy eating. It was no alcohol for the first four days. And like, at night, we would do like, after dinner, it would be like digestive flow yoga and then we would do sound baths. And it was crazy because when you do a sound bath for like, over an hour, you feel like you're on drugs, like your brain is going to different places. And I remember being like, what is happening? But I was just so present that you could be aware of what was coming up. And I was like, oh, I had never done anything to that extent of like spiritual, you know, call it whatever you want. But it was pretty powerful.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that certainly sounds that way. Do you think there could be like too much of that in like a normal day? Could you overstimulate?

Amanda Goetz
I'm not a meditator. Like, everybody's just like, get up in the morning and meditate. I can't do it. I have now just accepted that active meditation for me, I talked about like, in one of my newsletters, the idea of being bored and what does that actually look like? And how do you achieve that? And part of it is doing something that your brain doesn't have to activate. So I take the same walking path every single day. And that allows my brain like, doesn't have to think about anything. And I've just accepted that that's my active form of meditation. How do you get the least amount of stimulus? So I think we're just, we live in a very, like binary culture. I tweeted recently, like, you know, we went from like, girl boss era to like healthy girl era, where it was like, you have to like, you know, work all the time and hustle and do all this stuff. And then we swung this pendulum, it's like meditation, no alcohol

Arvid Kahl
Right, always extreme.

Amanda Goetz
Every extreme. And the through line of both of those things is shame and prescribing like one way to live a life with no fluidity and gray area. And it's like, okay, what does meditation do? Okay, it allows your brain to like decompress. And for you to like, reduce stimulus from your external environment. There's lots of ways that you could do that. So I'm trying to, like, allow people permission to operate kind of in the gray.

Arvid Kahl
I think that's a very valuable approach to this. Like, one thing that I truly, truly dislike about our culture, as you just mentioned, is the whole grind set attitude, the hustle culture thing and the other extreme, which is just people telling you what other thing to do to live your life perfectly. It's always people pushing.

Amanda Goetz
You should totally ice bath, you should totally be meditating. It's like you're also stressing me.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's the thing. It's just a massive amount of pressure either way, right? You're not living your life to the fullest, whatever that may mean. It means something different today than it did 10 years ago. But it's still either you do that or you're doing something wrong. And I don't like that idea.

Amanda Goetz
Going back to what we talked about in the beginning, which is people are searching for a solution. And so why are there all these content creators? And why can't I just write a book that's like, you're fine

Arvid Kahl
That's a great title. That's your title, you're fine.

Amanda Goetz
You can't, so people are looking for solutions to problems that they have. They're stressed, they're anxious, and they are wanting someone to tell them what to do. And I think it's knowing that there's no one way to live your life and you need to absorb information to the extent that you find what works for you and then everything else gets shut off.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing that is probably the hardest to learn. There is really no advice that will always be perfectly applicable to your life. Right? And that's something that I do want to talk to you about as well because first of, you are now a person that is just by your mere presence and in your audience and building the things that you're building. You're giving advice to people, either willingly consciously in the way you write or just by acting the way you do. And I do wonder, like, how much of that is intentional? Like do you sometimes think about like what your impact on other people is? And maybe obviously, in the best possible ways, but maybe also in how you can be misunderstood? That's something I struggle with. This is why I'm asking this, right? Like did you make sure you're not misunderstood? Like, how do you deal with that?

Amanda Goetz
You can't when you're online and I was not prepared for that, like I am a recovering people pleaser. I have a high need to be liked. And I'm very aware of that. And I've had to really work on that because at the end of the day, like I said, like how I talk about life and how I approach something, will rub people the wrong way. And that is not my intention. And so the biggest piece of advice, like, I mean, everyone gets bashed on Twitter specifically at some point when you grow. It's like you know you're hitting a hockey stick when someone hates you. And I was not prepared for that. And I remember I took it really hard. And it really rocked me when I had people kind of like, it's a pile on effect. There's an amazing TV show called Brain child. It's on Netflix. It's geared towards kids, but they do as an experiment. And I watched it with my children, where they put kids in two different rooms. And they show them the same video of a girl singing and she was not a good singer. And they had one group say, hey, you're gonna give anonymous feedback. She will never know. But give your real feedback, right? Then the second room, they said, hey, she's gonna come in, we're gonna have you give feedback, write down what you're gonna say to her, right? And, of course, the people who didn't think they'd have to say it to her face, bashed her. And the other people said constructive things like you might want to work on your tone. And so when this happens, I luckily had a support system that was they took me this group of people in Miami and I'm so thankful for them. My friend Kenny and Devin and they literally said, we're going out to dinner. And at dinner, they're like, we know who you are, we know your heart and what your intention is. So remember that this is what's important when this happens. And I think if you're going into the creator sphere, you have to make sure that you have that group of people for those days that people will come after you and it just rocks you.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that is wonderful. It's wonderful that you have those people to begin with. And that they reminded you that you have those people, you know. That's their job as a friend and as a supporter and motivator. You said something along the lines of recently, I think, it's very important to understand like, who you are giving access to yourself and who you should stop giving access to yourself as well, right?How do you live that on Twitter as your audience is growing?

Amanda Goetz
Well, first of all, say like, look, we all have different parts of our personality, right? If you break me open, you've got all of these facets. And I think it's interesting as my time on social media has evolved, which ones I lead with and which ones I allow more access to. And that's an evolving thing that I would empower everyone to kind of sit down and say, okay, you've got this part of your life, this part of your life, you've got all these different identities. Which ones do you want people to have access to? And then as you're doing that, empower yourself to change. Like, I used to allow people access to my dating life because part of my company was a sexual health and wellness company. So I was like, I'm a single mom. I'm dating. And then I realized, like, I can change that. And I can say, how much I'm going to allow and so people know I'm in a relationship and if they follow me on Instagram, maybe he appears in a picture too. But like, there's a lot of things over the past year that I did not allow access to as I was living my life and learning and growing. And that's okay. It's okay to change.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, boundaries are the most important thing like when you build an audience, but just when you're present on social media to begin with, even if you don't have any aspirations to build an audience boundaries and deciding which what lies in within them clearly within them, what lies clearly without them and what's kind of on the cusp. That is a massively important thing. Yeah, I was gonna ask you about how you balance this? Because you have a lot of personal things that you share. But you also have private things that I don't think you share, which is, you know, the absent. So I wonder how you define this? But from what I hear you say this is just like you have a pretty clear boundary for those things. Right?

Amanda Goetz
My therapist has been very, I mean, she's amazing. And she has this tool that she's had me use, where am I using social media as a diary or to help teach a lesson or share a lesson? And the latter requires thought and introspection and articulation in a way that you're delivering a certain message. The former is just word vomit. And that has been the biggest differentiator for me like, what am I sharing on social media, whether it's Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn, whatever, how much space went from thought to clicking post? And truly, like, I have found that more regretful content that I've shared, that time is a lot shorter. So I've just given myself more space to say, okay, there's something that I might want to share. Let me sit with it and really think about what's the purpose of me sharing this? And where is it coming from? Is it because I'm actually insecure about this thing that I'm doing? And I'm seeking validation? That's not a good reason to share. Is it because I'm proud of this decision I've made and I'm excited to share why I've made it? That's a better position to be.

Arvid Kahl
Okay, so you're riding the wave of the thought for a couple of minutes. And then you see if that works for you. I think out of all the frameworks of just like doing sane stuff in my life, riding the wave has been one of the most effective ones. Like, can I sit with this for five minutes and still want it? Great idea and wonderful for somebody building in public to have a kind of intentionality measurement tool like that, like, do I really want this? Is this really something I want to share? That is really helpful. Thank you for sharing this. That's extremely valuable. Yeah, that's great. Man, I'm thinking about Twitter right now because that is a platform that we're both very active on. And let's just call it a very volatile situation. I do wonder, you've been talking about this in the last couple of weeks too or you've asked people what they think about Twitter and the recent changes and to you know, that the compensation, the ad revenue share, and that kind of stuff. Now, as we've been talking about authenticity and you know, sharing things that are meant to teach and support and help, what do you think of the most recent and I guess, at this point now for over a year, pretty weird changes to the platform that have happened? Like, do you still feel at home on Twitter? The same way you did a couple years ago, maybe?

Amanda Goetz
I'll say yes

Arvid Kahl
Okay

Amanda Goetz
For this reason: when you do a really good job of curating your lists and who you follow and you block. No, we don't know if the block feature will be there. But when you block quickly and mute quickly, Twitter still like you and I met on Twitter and there are still incredible people who have great intentions that you can learn a lot from. And there's no other platform that I feel is like it. And the way I think of Twitter, I'm a visual person. It's like, I'm standing in a field with literally every investor and every, you know, big founder and all these cool creators and I'm seeing a field and I can walk right up to them and say something to them. How cool is that?

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that's right.

Amanda Goetz
So it's just this thing that like, there is a magic to it that I don't think is going anywhere. Now, like, couple of things have happened to me recently, that shook me to my core as a creator. I got hacked. I lost, someone got into my Twitter and took over, kicked me out, removed me. I had, you know, two factor authentification, all the things and they started scamming people which first and foremost like thing that hurt the most was like, they were using my children as like the hook to get people to fall for the scam. They were literally saying, like, I'm so sorry, because I got to see the DMS when I got it back and it was like, I'm so sorry to ask like, I need money for my kids. And because, like, I think people feel connected to me, they were like, okay, of course. And luckily some people saw when it was like a UK address. Like they were like, wait a second. This feels weird. But that was the first part that I was just like, I felt so icky. And then the second thing was, holy shit! I don't own my audience. And that was my wake up call where I was like, newsletter, I need to diversify. I need to make sure LinkedIn. I'm thinking about a podcast, like, I've got to figure out ways that I can connect with people that's not just one platform. So I definitely have had positive and negative thoughts. And it's more just now a holistic view of how I'm gonna build my brand.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, that hack, that must have been scary.

Amanda Goetz
It was so like vague, like, you feel like someone just came into your life. And then you're like, what do they see? What do they have access to? And also, how did they get it? And then I fell down all the rabbit holes of how this is happening more and more. And so if you don't have an authenticator app, get one now. And also, like, make sure that you change your SIM card and all this stuff, like I went through everything.

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, well, thanks for sharing this. It must have been quite traumatic. And as unhappy as that event is, I think the consequence that you understood two things. I mean, the one thing is really great that you have people in your audience that really, really like you and want to help you. That is a great learning from this, right? To know that they would jump to your rescue if you needed them, that is just the most wonderful thing. But on the other hand

Amanda Goetz
That's like, the amazing part of social media is the depth of connection when you share authentically about what you learn and who you are and what you're struggling with. Like, I will never be the creator. That's going to be like, I have it all buttoned up and perfect. And this is exactly how you should do it. I will always be like, guys, I quit my job and I'm scared, wanna figure it out. But like, I want people to be like, okay, let's do this together.

Arvid Kahl
Yes. Well, I hope you stay that way forever and never change.

Amanda Goetz
I'm getting close to 40, I don't know

Arvid Kahl
No, change any way you like, I think that is part of the journey that you're on that is so interesting to watch as well. I guess somebody on the sideline cheering you on. And let's just let's close with this. Because this, I think, is the perfect opportunity for you to tell people where they can find you and where they can become part of your journey, hopefully, to creator stardom even more than you already are.

Amanda Goetz
You're so sweet. Well, you know, we're all chatting on Twitter if you're active there. But like I said, the main way to connect with me, I respond to every email. So go to amandagoetz.com and sign up for the newsletter. It's called Life's A Game. And yeah, I would love to hear from people what they're dealing with in terms of balancing ambition and hustle culture because I think we all want to build things and do something cool, but not at the expense of the rest of our relationships, our lives. So yeah, that's where you could find me.

Arvid Kahl
That's definitely a recommendation if you want to be a full human being and not just like a shadow of some entrepreneurial advice you read on a blog. You should follow Amanda and read her newsletter because that is going to help you out. Thank you so much for being on the show today. I had a wonderful time chatting with you.

Amanda Goetz
It was so good to chat

Arvid Kahl
Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much.

And that's it for today. Now, we all want to build businesses that are valuable, right? No matter if it's a SaaS business, media business, creator business, whatever it is. But at some point, we might hit a certain ceiling. And this is where our sponsor comes in: acquire.com Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a solid SaaS product, acquired customers and is generating consistent monthly revenue. The problem is you're not growing for whatever reason, could be lack of focus or lack of skill or just plain lack of interest. There are many different reasons, but all of them lead to you feeling stuck. So what should you do? The story that I would like to hear at this point is that you just buckled down and reignited the fire, got past the cliches, started working on the business rather than just in the business, right? You start building this audience you always wanted to build and move out of your comfort zone to do sales and marketing like you've never done it before. And half a year later, you tripled your revenue. Wouldn't that be a great story? Well, reality is not that simple. The situation is different for every single founder who's facing this crossroad. Too many times though, the story ends up being one of inaction and stagnation until the business becomes less valuable or worse, worthless. So if you find yourself here or you think your story is likely headed down a similar road, I offer you a third option: consider selling your business on acquire.com. Capitalizing on the value of your time today is a smart move. Acquire.com is free to list. They have helped hundreds of founders already. So just go to try.acquire.com/arvid and see if this is for you right now if it's a good option for your business and your time at this very point.

Thank you so much for listening to The Bootstrapped Founder, episode 250. You can find me on Twitter @arvidkahl. You'll find my books and my twitter course there as well. If you want to support me and this show to go for another journey of 50 episodes, please subscribe to my YouTube channel and get the podcast in your podcast player of choice. And if you can, please leave a five star rating and a good review by going to (http://ratethispodcast.com/founder). I would really appreciate that because it just makes all the difference to put the show in front of more people. Any of this will help the show. So thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day. Bye bye