The Bootstrapped Founder

Arvid Kahl 0:00
Today my guest is Amanda Natividad, a marketing expert, a great writer and an incredibly kind teacher. We dive into her humble beginnings where humor helped her establish a strong foundation that she turned into a marketing powerhouse. Amanda works at SparkToro and has unique insights into the world of social media audiences, which we dive into deeply. If you want to know what zero click content is, why fractional marketing matters, and how Amanda plans her own site projects, stick around. This episode is sponsored by acquire.com. More on that later. Now, here's Amanda.

Amanda, welcome to the show. Back when the world was still somewhat normal, I found you through your writing on Twitter and your amazing writing on marketing, audience building, that kind of stuff. It was super accessible, onpoint, very relatable. So thank you for that. Now, I know that you started writing at a very, very early age in life and in a pretty nerdy way. Tell me who exactly are fufu and the dust bunnies?

Amanda Natividad 1:05
So you really did your research. So fufu and the dust bunnies is a fictional band that I made up in junior high that I used as a front to send memes and like funny audio files to my classmates. So the other way I talk about this is that I feel like I invented email newsletters as we know them today. Maybe I even invented memes.

Arvid Kahl 1:36
Wow

Amanda Natividad 1:36
Because this was like, I'm a little old here. But this was back in the AOL days. And it was when there wasn't really a meme. Right? There were a couple of funny like comedy websites. So I basically just got content from E bombs world, like links to Homestar Runner videos, weird JPEGs, wav files of like, I don't even remember what it was like Donald Duck, just like silly stuff. And I would round it up into a newsletter. And I would call it things like oh, no, we took a new band headshot. And there was like this creepy photo of a guy with like a funny face. And what do you think of my photo? Like, oh, the new single just dropped. And then it would be a funny wav file. And I would send this to my classmates every week as like, hey, the newsletter just came out. And I was a really like shy and quiet kid for most of my school life. So my classmates were like, I didn't know you were so weird. And I think it was just I just didn't have the medium in which I felt comfortable. And I suppose back then, email newsletters were my medium.

Arvid Kahl 2:53
That's so funny. Like the way you use the kind of the digital abstraction of the world of the internet to be an introvert, be somebody who doesn't openly talk about all these things just still be nerdy. I love that. And it's conversational. I love this. I love that like a fake band. Everybody can kind of relate to music, right? That's really cool. There's always this relatable aspect. That's kind of what I find in your writing. And I think to this day, you have this. You have this skill of making things relatable. I love the fact that it started out with something as weird as this. When did you write the last episode of this? Do you consider maybe sometimes reinventing this and bringing it back?

Amanda Natividad 2:55
You know what? Maybe I never thought about it. I should. I mean, I think my newsletter, my current newsletter, The menu, I've tried to have elements of curation. But I think to do it in a way that I feel would be most meaningful to people like setting the right context, surfacing, the ideas that I believe should be surfaced, I think would take me a long time. So I haven't really put more thought into how I would structure that but I like the idea. Maybe I should bring back fufu and the dust bunnies.

Arvid Kahl 4:02
I was wondering because you could probably with AI actually create fufu and the dust bunnies at this point. Like they could literally make songs in the style that you would like about a topic about a theme that you have in a enewsletter anyway, like, you know, like for something as weird as a fake band to actually be part of your personal brand. I love The Menu, like the fact that there's food tips, recipes in there, which I guess come from a rich history of having worked in this field for you as well. That's so nice. It's so uniquely you. It's so unique. Like nobody could write The Menu with you, right? Because you have your thoughts about marketing and audience building and all that. And they have you curated links, which is something that I want to talk to you about as well. And you have the food thing which is the surprise right? That's the fun part. Is that something that you would suggest to people who are starting out on their creator journey from the start to look for the fun part, look for the uniqueness that they have or contrasting it I guess with should you just do what you think people want from you?

Amanda Natividad 5:01
I think this is a really good question because I think it depends. I think everybody would want for me to say no, no, do what you want to do. But I think it depends because if your goal is maybe to monetize the content, right? Build a media empire, that kind of thing, then you should try to figure out what people want. And then, you know, figure out how you uniquely can deliver that value, of course, but I do think it's about finding a balance between what your market wants and what you actually want to create. So that's one piece. And then I think, when you think about the type of content you want to create, that's where there's a big opportunity to really find your unique voice, your unique perspective. Because, you know, like you kind of said earlier, right? Like, no one can do it the way you can, right? Like no one can talk about a certain topic, about like being a bootstrap founder, for instance, nobody can talk about it the way that you do with your experience, your expertise, the way that you view the world. So I think people should find the opportunity between that and the what the market opportunity actually is.

Arvid Kahl 6:20
Yeah, you can only really tell stories if you have actual anecdotes that are full of anecdata, that is your own lived experience. Right? And let's get back to fufu and dust bunnies because I think that concept, to me, it lends itself to explain this, I feel, because fufu could just have started as a cover band, right? They took songs from other bands put their own spin on it, but still it was other people's content, other people's ideas. And I think that's the curation part that a lot of founders or a lot of creators start out with because it's very easy to pull in the things that other people offer. And then over time, you connect the dots in ways that nobody else can. And that's when the cover band turns into an actual band that contributes to the richness of the musical sphere with new ideas and new songs, right? They write their own songs, quite literally, that's writing. So maybe let's put fufu aside, but I like the idea of using something that exists in the real world as an example for a larger concept. And you do this wonderfully in your content. And maybe that's what I would like to talk about because like over the last couple of years, I've followed you, obviously, on Twitter and the other platforms that you're on and you always find a way to distill your content or the ideas that you communicate into clear phrases. That is something that I find really, really interesting. And you recently, were talking about content that is very, that stays on platform and you have a phrase for this, right? Can you explain that for me?

Amanda Natividad 7:46
Yeah, so the phrasing that I call this is zero click content. So zero click content is standalone, unique content or standalone native to platform content, for which the reader or the consumer doesn't need to click to get the full context, that they can understand it and of itself. But if they do click, then it's even better. Right? So it's like, taking maybe a soundbite from a podcast and having the standalone soundbite that it makes sense in that 32nd clip. But it makes even more sense. Or it's put, you know, or it's even more enjoyable in the greater context of the full episode. Other versions of this would be, you know, rewriting, like a summary of a blog post into a Twitter thread, right? Taking like one discrete idea for a blog post, writing it into like a 100 word LinkedIn post or Twitter thread and giving people that like, standalone idea that kind of teases them or gets or entices them to stay on board, right? Or to click on the thing or subscribe to the newsletter or that sort of stuff.

Arvid Kahl 8:55
That seems the platforms now, particularly with Twitter over the last couple of months, they've been heavily disincentivizing clicking, getting people off platform and then loading up, I guess, on multimedia content on like, super long pieces of the content tweets that are like 10,000 characters or less, right? It feels like this is also encouraged by the algorithm. So my question is, well, if the algorithm which is a kind of a representation of the business model of Twitter, like keep people on Twitter all the time, wants me to write long content. Is that good for my personal brand? Or is it good for Twitter?

Amanda Natividad 9:28
Yeah, I think it's good for Twitter now and you know, Twitter or x, right? Like it's very, it's obviously very different today than it was like two years ago, right? And especially today, you know, at the time of this recording, they've definitely, you know, deincentivize putting in links, right? Because now they strip out the headline at any of the contexts. There really is no reason now to include links on Twitter, no reason for the creators, right? Beyond just you feel like you're supposed to. And then you have like LinkedIn, right? Where LinkedIn might not directly penalize you for putting a link, but they moreso reward engagement like comments and resharing and likes. So you're more incentivized to keep the conversation there. I think you know what I think it I think the opportunity is you as a creator, understanding these algorithms, like understanding how they work, at least on an overview level, like maybe you don't need to know all the nitty gritty, like exactly how much weight a like has. You don't have to know that. But I do think it's worth understanding these algorithms as a whole. And then learning how you can exploit them for lack of a better term, right? Like, how can you play into the incentives of the platform's in a way that aligns with your goals?

Arvid Kahl 11:02
I like the alignment. Alignment is the phrase that comes to mind, right? Because if Twitter wants something and you can help them get it, then they will help you hopefully, to get what you want. Right. And I've talked to Dickie Bush recently and he kind of told me his perspective on this. He said, there's kind of content that makes people discover you. And then there's the kind of content that makes people stay with you. They're not the same, right? Like the discovery content is the stuff that Twitter really likes. And the retention content, well, that's just what you need to do to cater to your existing audience. So if you can just follow those leads, you can do both.

Amanda Natividad 11:36
Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I mean, I think a podcast is a really good example of, it's not great for discoverability, right? Like if it's not a growth mechanism, it's more for affinity building, retention, strengthening, those kinds of things. It's, of course, super valuable. But most people don't discover you and your work, right, just through the podcast. Maybe people in your audience will discover me by virtue of your show. But that's sort of a different, it's not a true discovery mechanism.

Arvid Kahl 12:12
Yeah, it's kind of a by affiliation. That's what you call it kind of by proxy, which is nice. I like that, which is, what do I really enjoy because that also opens the door to a deeper human connection between people, right? Which is what we all kind of seeking. So when I hear this, I'm wondering, well, so now I'm active on social media. And I'm just putting myself in the shoes of somebody who's building a business or building a brand or something. I'm active on Twitter or I'm active on LinkedIn, trying to post them both at the same time. Now, I need to start a podcast for retention. Do I also need to start a newsletter? And do I have to have a blog? Like, what else do I need to do? Because if the platforms, the social media platforms were on only kind of like the discovery stuff, but don't do much about the retention, do I, as a creator need to take care of the retention part myself? And how do I best do this?

Amanda Natividad 12:58
Yeah, yeah, I think readers should take care of the retention part themselves, right. But I mean, I think it's, doing it in a way that is most interesting or most sustainable for yourself, right? Like, not everyone should start a podcast. Not everyone should start a newsletter. Right. But I think it's whatever medium or platform that you feel is most engaging for you and your work. And it's something that is easily repeatable for you. Right? So for some people, you know, that might be a newsletter. It might be video. Well, I doubt it video. Video is really hard. But if someone is good at it, right? Then by all means, you should do that, right? Yeah

Arvid Kahl 13:41
Yup. You shouldn't just like chase a different medium just to be different, right? You're you have this, this phrase that you use a lot, be refreshing, don't be different. I have a feeling that that might come in here as well. Like if your audience is in a certain kind of area and they start using certain mediums, they're all on YouTube or they're all on Twitter. Well, you probably want to be there as well. But you want to show up in a way that is genuinely you. And that's something I find with you. And that's something that I find a lot in your writing that you're very focused on looking at what do they want, but also what can I give and where's the overlap between these two?

Amanda Natividad 14:19
Yeah, absolutely. And to expound on the be refreshing, not different, that is a J Kenzoism. So J Kenzo is a showrunner, content creator, public speaker and author, but I liked that he talks about being refreshing and not different. Because when you think about being refreshing, it's who can you be refreshing to? Refreshing to whom and it's thinking about the audience. When you're thinking about how to be different, you're thinking about how can I be different from who, like from the competition? And so using the refreshing kind of framework is you're thinking about what your target audience actually wants. Whereas if you're thinking about just how to be different, you're only thinking about the competition, which is not something you should be doing and that you maybe should know to some degree about the competition. Right? But ultimately, they're not what matters, right? It's not really your competition who's listening to you. It's the audience that you're trying to go after.

Arvid Kahl 15:19
Yeah, I think it's just in terms of even visualizing it. If you define yourself by who you're not, well, then you visualize very strongly who that is, right? Like, you'll only look at the people that are the way you don't want it to be. But that does not imply you know at all what you actually want to be like. I like this. I think generally, it's a good idea to stand for something, not against something, right. But I don't want to make this too political today. It just feels like that as an approach to being a creator tends to be a pretty good idea. Well, how do you find this out? How did you find this out? Because at some point, you decided to start publishing online. And that was quite a while ago and it has led to pretty significant consequences for you, right? You've found an amazing job, you have started a course that is well beloved and impactful. But let's go back to that point in time when you started to write online. Did you know who you were writing for? Or how did you define yourself in that moment?

Amanda Natividad 16:12
Yeah, so when I first started out with creating content and sort of the audience building stuff, I was writing for other marketers, who might hire the services of my agency or the agency that I worked for. So I was going after marketers, entrepreneurs, that sort of audience. And that was the first kind of part of it. I was like, great, I'm going to create content for these people that gave me a goal to work towards. But along the way, as I was doing this, my target audience sort of evolved because then I just started thinking about like, well, really who is this for? Right? Because I think after I had been doing that for a little while, I was starting to get more like inbound opportunities for other jobs and stuff. And that was really exciting. And then I started thinking less about the day to day of like, how can I do my job? And more about like, how can I use this to further my career? Like, what is my personal goal with this? So then I started thinking about like, well, I want to use this as opportunity to not ever have to do a traditional job hunt again. And so then my target audience kind of shifted like, still towards marketers. But then I started thinking about, like, the marketers who I would want to work with one day, like, who are some of the marketing people I would want to work with, who are some of my marketing heroes. And where that helped me was, well, here, then I'll just say really quick, like, I started kind of thinking about that. And then one of my marketing heroes, Rand Fishkin, followed me back. Right? So I mean, for those who don't know, I think any indie hacker knows who Rand Fishkin is, right?

Arvid Kahl 17:57
Oh, they should.

Amanda Natividad 17:58
They should, right? He was the first person to codify SEO, right? Like, essentially, he taught all of us SEO. He was the first person to like, go out and learn it in like the early aughts. And he found a way to distill it into advice for people and taught the world SEO. He also invented domain authority. I don't think a lot of people today know that. But domain authority, the way in which we, you know, categorize the authority of a website, he invented that. So anyway, I'm saying that to set the stage for when he followed me back exactly why I was like, oh, my gosh, like this is a huge deal. And now, certainly, I was self conscious, right? When one of your heroes follows you back, like, I think for a lot of people, maybe they were the reflexive instinct is oh my gosh, like, I can't tweet ever again. I better just quit now while I'm on top. Right? So I definitely did that. I did close the app and was like, I'm not tweeting for a couple days. But it helped me think more clearly about well, okay, why would Rand Fishkin follow me back? Right? See, this is the person who is like, he laid the groundwork for content marketing, as we know it today. So he didn't follow me to learn marketing, right? He wasn't like, what is marketing? I'm gonna follow this person, Amanda. He followed me to learn my perspective, like, what is it that I can bring to the table in terms of new marketing tactics that maybe he hasn't heard of? Or things that I'm finding effective? Or maybe even like, my hobbies, like what is maybe he's curious what I think about food or like how to cook certain things, right? All those things that make me me and so once I kind of got to that mindset, I became less self conscious in that then I was like, oh, hey, I don't need to be the expert. Like I don't know everything and nor would he expect me to and nor would anyone expect me to. And then I really felt like I was having a lot more fun with the content I was creating and thinking about on an elevated level, right? Like, how can I make this really high quality? Like, what's my unique perspective? What is the unique experience that I have with cooking this dish that maybe someone else hasn't done before? Like those things that make me me. And so I think I talk about this because I think that's a really good way for any sort of creator to think about the types of content they're creating, right? Because it's a way to think about how you do for yourself

Arvid Kahl 20:37
Yes

Amanda Natividad 20:38
In a way that helps you put your best foot forward.

Arvid Kahl 20:41
Yeah, when you call it personal brand, it's not just about the brand. It's very much also about the personal, right? About what is the unique thing that is then the brand, right? That's such an important part. And people often suppress it, I think. A lot of founders and a lot of people who have done it for a while, they still suppress parts of their personality because they think they are too quirky, too spiky, too opinionated, right? Too experience in a field that doesn't matter. But honestly, if you really want to build this authority in public, or just any authority anywhere, you just have to leave with everything you have, right? You have to put your value on the table. I love the story about Rand. I love your reaction to it. That's such a, you know, like, our imposter syndrome that just like constantly in the background of our minds just came out swinging at that point, nope, you're done. I love that story. I had this a couple of times as well in the past. But I also had the opposite of this where people followed me and it was like, oh, wow, now I can actually interact with these people that are my heroes. And I chatted with them. And it turns out, they're just like me seeking to learn from each other. I really enjoy this. So is that the mindset that you have when you now publish? Not necessarily to instruct, but to open up learning from people as yourself?

Amanda Natividad 22:00
I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think it's a combination of things like sometimes I'll put on kind of different hats. And I think about like, maybe I'll write something for the version of me, like, eight years ago, who was just entering their first, I think it was eight years ago. I just kind of set that number, like, maybe eight years ago or so when I first became a people manager. Like, maybe I'll write this thing for that person or that version of me. So I do think about that sometimes, too. But wait, I'm curious about you. Like, who was somebody who followed you back that you were like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe this person like knows who I am. And they know I exist.

Arvid Kahl 22:38
It was funny. I think it started with like Patrick Campbell, like the founder of Profitwell and who recently sold it to Paddle for $200 million towards bizarre and then just chatting with him into the ends and setting up even the interview on this podcast, something that I never thought I'd be able to, get people that are in the what is it? Nine figure acquisition field and just casually chatting about this? That is something that I find like mind blowing or Courtland Allen and Channing Allen of the indie hackers community, a community that started my journey, right? That was such an integral part of why I am where I am, a bootstrapper, an indie hacker, just them actually just showing up following and wanting to learn blows my mind every single day. That is the case that I now get to hang out with them and bounce ideas back and forth all these wonderful people is just yeah, that blows my mind.

Amanda Natividad 22:40
Yeah, that's super cool. Yeah.

Arvid Kahl 22:59
And I feel the more I do it, the more it happens. That's also something that just consistency wise for somebody building this brand, which I think I'm doing as well around building in public by building in public, I guess. The more you build this network, the more opportunities just kind of fall into place. Have you noticed the same in your experience?

Amanda Natividad 23:56
Oh, absolutely. Right. You're just opening up more doors to serendipity for yourself.

Arvid Kahl 24:01
Yeah

Amanda Natividad 24:01
That's why it's so important, right? It's so important to do that. Like, that's why I think that's the real reason why anybody everybody should think about their personal brand. I put it on air quotes because I know, people don't always like that phrasing. But it really is the best way to find serendipitous opportunities for yourself or to let those serendipitous opportunities find you.

Arvid Kahl 24:24
Yeah. Which is why this whole discovery content stuff that we talked about earlier is so important, right? To open up the potential for connection. I do want to look at it like from a, I wouldn't call it skeptical, but realistic lens, though, because if we don't own the means of communication, which I think is just a new age rephrasing of the means of production. But I don't want to go too deep into this, but the means of communicating with a person because if you're on a platform like Twitter or whatever, it's kind of beholden to Twitter, right? They can turn off the platform for us whenever they want and then we lose all the connections we can potentially have. How can we establish like a more ontrolled environment there? Like, how can we establish actual meaningful connections still virtually because we're all just sitting in our basements or in our living rooms doing our things at this point, right? Post pandemic, maybe, but we've gotten used to this. What's an avenue that we can take to establish like, stronger connections than what social media is currently offering us? What do you think?

Amanda Natividad 25:21
Yeah, that's a tough question. I mean, I want to say like, I mean, social media today is just so different than it was a couple years ago. Right? Like, it just is. I mean, with the volatility over at Twitter, I think a lot of people, pretty much everybody, right? And on Twitter/X, is thinking about, like, ah, what's the next platform that everybody's getting on? Like, should I go there first? Like, you know, the way that like a bunch of us tried to go on Mastodon or Bluesky. Now, Threads, I think is the place like, everyone's like trying to hedge, right. So I do think there is something to be said for, like, you know, I'll say, like three years ago, I would have said, like, yeah, pick one social media platform and get really good at it and then scaled to the next one. I kind of still would say that maybe in broad strokes. But maybe today, if I were giving that advice, like right now totally net new, I would say pick two social networks. And then that's so hard to do. Because to show up on a social network, you have to look at it as a community. And not just as you know, you with a megaphone, blasting out like your content, right? You have to look at it as like, where's the existing community that my target audience is in? But not looking at them as a target audience, looking at them as an existing community and figuring out your role in that community, creating content for it, and kind of, you know, building relationships at scale. I would say find two places for that. And then meanwhile, build your like, owned platform, which would be like, probably your email list. Maybe it will be like your show, right? Like the thing that you own that isn't beholden to algorithms, that you can essentially control.

Arvid Kahl 27:15
Yeah. Two platforms, that sounds like already a lot more work than just one platform, you know. It feels like, particularly for founders, for people who are busy building things, not just hanging out on Twitter, like I do all day. But actually, you know, building software, that's still stuff that I do. But you know, like, I mostly spend time writing and thinking and reading. So it's easy for me to be on Twitter and to be on LinkedIn. But if you barely have time, right, that feels like a lot of work. Which is why some people just take one thing and post it to both platforms at the same time. What is your perspective on this? Because as you just explained, these are different communities and different communities speak a different language. They have different expectations. Does it still make sense to just kind of broadcast the same message into multiple different platforms and expect them to work in both?

Amanda Natividad 28:04
I think it can. But it depends on the message. Like, I think if it's a big idea like a thesis, like something that you've worked really hard on like a meaningful blog post, then that should be something that can essentially be replicated across multiple networks. Because after all, if you've spent all that time and energy working on this, like, you know, 2000 word blog post, then it should kind of stand the test of a couple of different platforms. But if you're thinking about like, if you had like a pithy tweet, right? That it was like a one liner, like one line zinger, that's probably not going to do well on LinkedIn, but probably not. Right? So maybe what I would think about is understand each network, like why people go to each network, what they look for when they do or rather, what does your community do on each of these networks? And then how does your content kind of fit in with that? Right? So like, I don't know what the indie hacker audience does on LinkedIn. Are they, I mean, I assume they're on LinkedIn and the way that everybody is on LinkedIn. Right? But are they really there? Isn't there water cooler? Probably not. Right? Like, that's where I might think that well, I mean, I see LinkedIn as more like this is where corporate people are. And that's kind of what I use that for.

Arvid Kahl 28:05
I guess that's also my let's call it more that my experience over the last decade or so, but doesn't necessarily mean that it's still the case, right? I wish there was an audience research tool that could help me discover these kinds of things. It's kind of what SparkToro does. That's the whole point, right? Is to figure this out. I was wondering how much do you yourself use audience research tools like SparkToro in your own like personal creator journey?

Amanda Natividad 29:57
Yeah. So I think, so SparkToro, you know, at the time of this recording, we are making a lot of changes with the tool. And I think it's going to be we're going to relaunch it, I think at the end of this year at the end of 2023. And I think it's going to be really exciting time for creators, bootstrap teams, people on small budgets to use to leverage the tool because whereas before we were more Twitter centric and that we used Twitter as sort of the connector network to verify other identities or behaviors. Because Twitter used to have the most robust API offering. They no longer do. So we're moving more towards a domain centric, so like what people are doing based on the websites they go to. So different way of pulling data, but we're going to be able to show you newer data points, like for instance, something that I think will be really exciting for anybody who creates content or distributes anything, is you can search for your audience. And you can search for how popular a given social network is among this audience, relative to the average person. So like, for instance, like I recently ran a SparkToro search like of the SparkToro community, like what does the SparkToro community do? I learned that they tend to frequent Quora more than the average person

Arvid Kahl 30:13
Interesting

Amanda Natividad 30:26
That was something I didn't know. Like, it's not shocking to me, but I didn't know that. Right? I also learned that like they are on LinkedIn more than the average person, not too surprising. And then I forgot there was one network where they were, that was like, less influential. I think it was Instagram, like, people who like the SparkToro audience is less engaged on Instagram than the average person. So this will give you a sense of like, where to put your efforts in terms of the actual, like content creation or distribution.

Arvid Kahl 31:57
That's a wonderful feature. And I would love to know more about indie hackers in that regard, right? Bootstrappers, creators because it feels like every single sub audience that you might find even within has a different approach to this, like that there are people like UX designers that are indie hackers too that probably also more focused on visual media, like Instagram would be than others. So that would be very interesting. Do I see you actively searching stuff what I see right now?

Amanda Natividad 32:25
I was like, wait, I'm going to try to see like can I search for the indie hacker audience right now?

Arvid Kahl 32:31
I would love to know. That'd be interesting.

Amanda Natividad 32:33
Okay, so like, the indie hacker audience, some of the yeah, so the people who have the word like indie hacker in their bio, like in their social media profile, they also tend to frequent kotaku.com, gamepressure.com, contentlife.com.

Arvid Kahl 32:52
That's funny. There's a lot of gamers, indie people, that is interesting to know. And also really just also as an indicator for the kind of content and the kind of language to use when communicating with people. I think that's just goes right back into how do we talk to the people that we want to be involved with the people who we want to serve. Like, if we can talk in metaphor that they understand just taking from the kotaku world, I guess, a lot of gaming and a lot of, you know, nerd life metaphors. You could use that, right? I've seen a lot of good newsletters that actively lean into the just the language, vernacular of people that they try to serve. Absolutely.

Amanda Natividad 33:34
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think tapping into their vernacular is kind of the best way to really establish credibility with a given audience, right? Because if you're not using the shared terminology, right, they're gonna be like, you don't speak my language. You don't know my world.

Arvid Kahl 33:50
Sometimes when I think about this, my developer mind immediately kicks in. And I think like, there's probably somebody who's going to try to automate all of this with like an open AI Chat GPT prompt that says, you are a gamer, rephrase all of this tweet into something that a gamer would relate to. And it's probably simple. And every single day that we get new releases from open AI, it gets faster, it gets more comprehensive, it gets easier to use. How do you personally feel as somebody who's been working in this field for a while. You have a lot of experience. You've also managed people. Do you think you'll eventually manage AI agents to do the work that you now kind of do with other humans?

Amanda Natividad 34:30
I don't know. I mean, that's a good question. That's the thing I really hadn't thought about. Maybe, right? Like, I think there's still some I think there's fun opportunity and like building your own, like, custom large language models, like the AI element, right? Like, it'd be cool to build your own chat bot that's trained on all of your past episodes, right?

Arvid Kahl 34:55
Yeah. That's something I've been thinking about a lot and several people have reached out to me asking me if I would like this. And I told them yes, build it. And they are, right? There are people building this kind of stuff. And with every new day, as of this recording, I think yesterday open AI announced like their custom GPT thing, which means, like you can very easily now build custom ChatGPT versions trained on whatever you want them and you can find them on GPT itself, right? You don't have to use any external tools for this. This will heavily impact how firms or companies just internally use this tool for whatever. I can barely imagine what it might be. We've seen what it does for marketing copy, right? We've seen how efficient or inefficient depending on how well you are prepared to write good prompts. It can be. I just want to get like a sentiment from you about is there a way to authentically represent yourself as a marketer, as a creator, as somebody who has something to offer? And use these tools that are effectively not you in the process?

Amanda Natividad 36:04
I would think about it, like how can you use these tools to do the work that you yourself don't need to do? Like the things that like, when you're searching for certain types of information, does it need to be you? Who does it? Or is it just a job that needs to get done? If it's a job that needs to get done, maybe that can be you know, essentially outsourced to AI. But I think it's the custom stuff, like how you say it in your tone. I mean, I think AI is getting better, right? At like writing in the style of certain people like and it will continue to get better. But I think if you really want to challenge yourself, right to bring forth unique ideas or unique styles, that's going to be something that AI shouldn't be able to do, right? Because if it's very nature or inherently, it is derivative. Can it really provide something original, you know?

Arvid Kahl 37:05
Yeah, so you just have to do a lot of zigzagging to kind of stay ahead of what the AI may assume you might want to do. Because right now it's derivative, but I assume that there will be smart people to build AI tools to kind of extrapolate, like with how you communicate, who you communicate with, where your next thought is gonna be coming from, which is eerie to think about that these tools might kind of be pre cox, like Minority Report style, about what we're going to be saying in the future and kind of pre assume it. And I don't really want to dive too deep. It's going to be a very pessimistic version of how we communicate with each other. But I was I was wondering, like how actively you use these tools right now in your own process. Because I use them for ideation a lot. I just look for ideas back and forth and give me five more potential ways of looking at this. And then I think about it and then I dictate something into you know, a tool that gives me a summary from which I write my draft. It's part of my ideation process, but I don't use it for the final writing process. How was that for you?

Amanda Natividad 38:06
Yeah, I mean, similar, like, I use it for ideation for like, rough drafts. So I might use it to like to brainstorm some headlines, maybe look at awkward sentence phrasing. Right. Other things that I like to use, like chat bots, like Chat GPT for is like recipes, right? Like or meal planning, right? So I might type in like, I have like, lettuce, cilantro, and like ground pork in my fridge. What should I make? Right? So I've been using it for that, which I think is a lot of fun.

Arvid Kahl 38:32
Has it ever backfired? Have you ever gotten a really, really bad recipe from it that did not make it?

Amanda Natividad 38:46
Well, you know, here's the thing, actually. I don't actually use the recipes to a tee. Because that's where like, the snob in me is like, ah, this is gonna be right. But I use it as like the compass to be like, oh, okay, well, with lettuce, cilantro, and ground pork, I can make larb. And then I'll think about, like, how I would make it. I might search on Google for a couple of food blogs that I really like and look at their recipes. So I think because like sometimes I'll look at a recipe in Chat GPT and I'll be like, this isn't gonna be very good. I just know it.

Arvid Kahl 39:24
Yeah, because it has no taste, right? Quite literally and metaphorically. It is incapable of understanding the results of its own creation. I like this. You synthesize the AI created stuff and hopefully human created recipes from other places into something that you can pre judge the outcome of. I think this is important to understand, like our capacity to pre judge outcomes without having to take the actual steps along the way, which is how these machine learning models or AI models work, right? They kind of have to write to think. I do too, but that's just my own flaw in writing. That is something that is still uniquely human and your capacity to synthesize it at the end.

Amanda Natividad 40:06
Yeah, that's a great point. I think, yeah, I think I would add to that, too, like, would I be doing this? Or would I be using Chat GPT in the same exact way for meal planning if I didn't have any expertise in food? I might not. I might still use it. But like, I have the foundational knowledge of like, how to cook. I went to culinary school. I have quite a bit of experience working in test kitchens. So I kind of know I know how to cook. Right? So that gives me some confidence, right? In sussing out recipes just by skimming the ingredient list and looking at the preparation method. I might look at something and go, oh, they didn't start by, you know, browning the meat, right? Like if you're cooking like maybe a nice stew, usually, you'd want to brown or sear the meat on the outsides, get some nice carmelization of that outside crust. And then you would finish cooking recipe. But if I saw a stew recipe through Chat GPT that just said, like throw the meat in the pot, pour over like chicken broth, and then this and this and then bring it to a boil, I would be like ew, that's not how I would make that. I know this is a really like wonky or like, really specific example. But I'm highlighting this to show like because I know those things. I know to look for them, right? Where if I didn't really know how to cook, I don't know that I would be just trusting Chat GPT blindly. I wouldn't be like, oh, well Chat GPT told me to make the stew like this. So I'm just gonna do it that way.

Arvid Kahl 41:41
It's funny that you mentioned like browning the meat in this case because you could ask Chat GPT about the Maillard reaction and it will tell you exactly how that happens, why it happens, why it releases flavor, all of that, but it would not think because it doesn't to actually include it in this recipe to make it better. Right? That's kind of it has its silos of knowledge because that's kind of what it was trained on. But it cannot synthesize. That is an important consequence to understand, which also means that we still need to learn, like humans we still need to learn the foundational.

Amanda Natividad 42:14
Yeah, like Chat GPT won't know, like, it won't know that you care about the Maillard reaction, right?

Arvid Kahl 42:21
Yeah, that's right.

Amanda Natividad 42:22
So it wouldn't know to surface a recipe that includes that technique. It'll just know, well, you want to make this thing based on these ingredients. So yeah.

Arvid Kahl 42:34
Well, unless you've written publicly about it and it has ingested this and it knows that you are talking to it, which is also a pretty weird perspective to have about a future, but it is a likely one because now the tools have the capacity to do real time lookups. And if they can look on Twitter, what you've written about today or yesterday, they might understand what your intention is, what you want, and give you replies to that. Kind of makes me wonder, as we're putting more and more information out there, right? For these machines to ingest, do you think that makes us? Or maybe let me rephrase this. Do you think this makes our personal brand stronger? Because we now have information that other people might get from Chat GPT? And hopefully, therefore find us and what we have to offer? Or does it weaken us? Because now Chat GPT can do our work for us and other people don't get to see the stuff that is behind that kind of work.

Amanda Natividad 43:34
I think it makes it harder for mediocre content to stand out. Right, like it raises the bar, essentially.

Arvid Kahl 43:48
Yeah, I think that's it, like you just have to out qualitatively, right? So you have to have higher quality in what you offer that is more personal to you and more relatable, therefore, to others. And which kind of brings us together back to the point where you said, you have to kind of find your people and create for them not create for everybody else. Right? I think that's something that I heard you say as well. You don't have to be the best at something. You just have to be somebody's favorite. And I really liked that phrase as well. Because that just shows you have to have an audience that selects into you. And everybody else can easily select out of wanting to be like related to you and it's still going to be perfectly fine for a creator like you.

Amanda Natividad 44:36
Yeah, absolutely. And like you're never going to be the best at something, right?

Arvid Kahl 44:42
Which you just said that earlier with Rand when you said like, here's this person that is so much better than me at marketing following me and he's not following you for your marketing teachings. He's following you because you're awesome. Right? And that awesomeness is what he's interested in, learning from somebody on his level. That is really wonderful. Do you expect to keep just revolutionising your audience? Oh, in the future, like keep building more of an audience in the building in public realm or in the audience building realm? Where do you see yourself going? Because you have this wonderful course way to teach marketing. And yet that's a cohort course. How do you see this evolving? I want to know this because I love people that start something and it grows over time into something much bigger, much better. So where do you see your own personal audience going?

Amanda Natividad 45:32
You know, I don't know right now. So I'm sort of at this crossroads. And that, well, this is actually the first podcast that I've joined since coming back from parental leave. So I had like, you know, a bigger family now. I have more to consider in terms of, like how I spend my time or what I want spend the energy on now that I have a bigger family. So there's that. And I have created a couple of things that I think have different pads or different sort of end games that I could consider. When I first started my content marketing course, my content marketing course is called Content Marketing 201. And I've very purposely positioned that as like an intermediate content marketing course, right? It's not like, if you're an expert, you probably wouldn't take my course. I think an expert content marketer is probably diving super deep into a given niche or like, into a given way of doing something. Like I think a really advanced content marketer might be thinking about launching a podcast. And so they want to know how to create the best podcast, types of editing tools to consider, which agencies to hire, like things like that that's really specific. I think an intermediate content marketer can still be kind of broadly or the curriculum for that is still I think, more broadly applicable, where it's not just people who are thinking about a blog. They might be thinking about a couple of different content channels. So I focused my course on that. But there was a time and I still might do this. There was a time where I was thinking about, like, how can I make the 201 school? Right? like, cuz I've thought about, you know, having like a PR 201 course, where it's sort of like the intermediate level PR course that goes beyond what is a press release. it's not so much what is a press release. maybe it's more how to write an effective press release and develop a media strategy for the news, like, things like that that a beginner wouldn't know, but an intermediate person would have to learn. So that's one thing I'm thinking about. Other things I'm thinking about are just really trying to double down on the b2b SaaS world and SparkToro world like and this is the guide we'll be doing, right? Like, how do I grow this company? How do we improve the tool and like, become one of the best like b2b SaaS companies? That's the thing I think about.

Arvid Kahl 48:14
That's very interesting. I kind of want to talk about both because both are very distinct and super interesting like future projections. I like the idea of the 201 academy. I like the idea of like, this is a place where everybody who's in between the initial and the expert stages of a career can find something because I have this strong feeling that particularly at this intermediate stage, you have so much to learn from just knowledge transfer from other fields, right? So having a place where all of these things like the Marketing 201, the PR 201 and I don't know, the Sales 201, whatever that might be, find their place. That is a great idea. Would you want to run it all by yourself? Or would you want to open it up to other lectures? Is that something on your mind?

Amanda Natividad 49:02
I don't know. I mean, like, I guess it would depend on the scale at which I do it. Because there are areas of marketing that I wouldn't feel comfortable being like the originator of here's how to do this. Like I wouldn't be comfortable creating my own like advertising or like paid social course, like by myself. So I think that's where I would want to lean on other experts or people who have more that tactical knowledge and then see how we can partner together.

Arvid Kahl 49:35
Yeah, I think Daniel Vassallo is doing this really well with the small bets community. Like he has people all kinds of expertise come in almost regularly on a yearly basis and just teach like an hour and a half of their field. And the communities like you pay once access forever, kind of like a university, I guess and just way cheaper than that. And you get to experience all these different fields from people that are experts, but they're bringing it back to the level of a beginner in this case, right? I wonder if that would be an interesting model for you. I don't necessarily think we need to dive too specifically into the business model there, although that's interesting, right? How can you leverage your personal brand into a monetizable enterprise, I think that is generally an interesting field. But I will also want to dive into the SaaS world a bit because lots of listeners here are building their own SaaS. So I kind of want to kind of harken back. And this might be the last topic of this conversation, to marketing as something that indie hackers need to do. That's obviously a field where lots of technical people don't really enjoy it. There's memes all over the place about marketing being the thing that people don't like. But it's something that we need to do, to put attention that shine the light of attention on our products and our businesses. You talked a lot recently, over the last couple of months about the idea of a fractional marketing director, right? The idea of having, maybe you can explain this.

Amanda Natividad 51:06
Yeah, yeah. So I wrote this blog post about fractional marketing directors because I feel like I have been seeing a lot of fractional chief marketing officers, like I've been seeing the job, like the job requisition, people entering that role. And I've seen people in that fractional CMO role and have kind of seen the work that they do or like, have a sort of peek into the type of work that they do and thought, like, oh, that's not what a CMO does. Like, it's interesting that that's our title. But like, that's not, but that's pretty like tactical work that they're doing. Like they're running an SEO function as like a sort of consultant. That's not what a CMO would do. So I've kind of been noticing some of these patterns and have thought like, maybe it's not that people, well, I don't think everybody needs a fractional CMO or that some of the companies who are hiring for this role, I think what they actually want is a fractional marketing director. And the differentiation there being and maybe somebody listening would be like, oh, titles don't matter. But they do matter, right? Because your CMO is the person who sets the overall strategic vision for like the remainder of the year, right? They have like the full roadmap. They are thinking about how all the dots connect across different departments, revenue streams, whatever, right? They're thinking about how brand and performance intersect, like all these things that are very strategic. And it's not that other marketers on a team think about those things. It's that they're not always behold it or they're not responsible for it in the same way that a CMO is. Now where I think a fractional marketing director comes in, is it somebody who has domain expertise or job function expertise while also being enough of a generalist to be effective in other parts of marketing. Right? So a marketing director might be somebody who has really good SEO experience, right? That's kind of their thing. They also know a little bit of social media. Maybe they know a little bit of performance marketing and you hire them mainly for the SEO purposes. And also to make some headway in the rest of your marketing. Like that is what I think most companies actually need. They need somebody to own a given marketing function and to get them those tactical results. Not somebody necessarily, who's going to like set the vision and then spend time in a lot of meetings and running strategy, right. I think a lot of times like these companies who are hiring for these part time functions, they need somebody to roll up their sleeves and like, just create that social media content, like just get it done. While also setting that strategy for organic social media, right? Like somebody who can do that and has a little bit of expertise to other things, but can make really good headway on the tactical stuff.

Arvid Kahl 54:11
I really like this idea, particularly for indie hackers or for small software businesses who don't have like a massive budget anyway, to hire these kinds of sea level positions, right. And you're right. Titles really matter. They come with a price tag, they come with an experience assumption, and all these expectations so that the fractional part kind of appeals to me also as somebody who is not a native marketer, to know that there are people out there. Where do I find these people? That's a pretty twisting question. Like, where would I as somebody who has a technical background and maybe a vision, entrepreneurial background, but not as much of a marketing background. Where would I go to find a fractional director, marketing director?

Amanda Natividad 54:50
You might find someone on LinkedIn. Right? So the person I'm thinking about would be somebody who's like, a senior manager or director at a company where they have like maybe five to seven years of experience running their own function or their own domain. And they might have a little bit of tangential experience and other stuff. So I think there's a way to like look on LinkedIn, like different people who have like, maybe who are product marketers first, right? I think that's kind of the route would start. Yeah

Arvid Kahl 55:22
That sounds reasonable. I think like, also, I was just thinking of your example, your experience. You were hired from the community in which you were already active. Right? That's something that I would think is also a place where you can go, like, you've literally found your job because your boss followed you. And then, you know, turn it into a job. So I guess that's also an avenue to find people that are in the same industry as you but not necessarily have the exact same background, but have a marketing background. Would you recommend that?

Amanda Natividad 55:51
Yeah, definitely. I think being like, active in that community that you want to serve, it's a great way to do it. I think also, this kind of a really specific example. But I think just making it as easy as possible for people to stumble upon you and your expertise. And so by that, I mean, like, even just something as basic as making sure your social media bios are up to date.

Arvid Kahl 56:18
Yeah

Amanda Natividad 56:18
Right. Like, it's even just that like, this is like super nerdy. But something that I've done is I've exported my Twitter audience, like everybody who follows me on Twitter, I actually have an Excel spreadsheet of all the handles, names and people's bios. And anytime somebody asks me, like, hey, do you know of a good email marketer I can hire? I actually pull up my spreadsheet and I hit Ctrl F for email marketing

Arvid Kahl 56:47
That's awesome

Amanda Natividad 56:48
To see, like, anyone who follow me and like, I think I have like 130,000 followers

Arvid Kahl 56:54
Yes, you do.

Amanda Natividad 56:54
Like people who follow me who have that title, it's not like 1000 people. Like, it's like 50. And that's not very many, right? Like, it's not like, it's enough that you can just hit like, next, next, next, and like skim each bio and that's what I look at. And then if I find a compelling, you know and doesn't have to be like, some insane bio that's like, drove, you know, 10 figure revenue, like I don't look for that. I look for something honest and clear. And then I'll look at their profile and I skim their content. And I'm like, oh, they seem cool. And then I'll tell the person who's asking me like, yeah, reach out to this person. They seem to have really good experience in email marketing. I would probably ask them.

Arvid Kahl 57:36
That is such a wonderful. First off, it's really nice that you do this because it just shows how much you actually like the people you hang out with on Twitter, which is also great. But also, what a crazy thing, like if you didn't know that, right? That people actively look into your bio to recommend you to other people. And you just don't put it in because they think nobody's going to look at this anyway. And here would be that opportunity, right? That's what building in public is. You leave traces of your ambition so that other people can actually find it and recommend you to the places where you need to be.

Amanda Natividad 58:09
Yes

Arvid Kahl 58:09
It's such an opportunity surface thing where you just need to put it out there and somebody will grab you because they need you. That's so cool.

Amanda Natividad 58:16
Totally! And like maybe as someone listening is thinking, this is weirdly specific. So I should include this in my bio in case somebody hits Ctrl F on my stuff. Maybe, maybe not, maybe one way to look at it, though, is, as you are like building your online presence, anybody who considers following you is going to look at your bio, like anybody, right? So you might as well have something that's clear, easy to understand that's true, right? Like, truth over trying to engineer something impressive. And then just like, make it easy for people to find you like you can do it on LinkedIn too. Like, so that anyone searching for email marketing, whatever on LinkedIn might find you by way of your headline. And then by extension, having a personal site that's linked to on your social media profiles, where people can go to like, amandanet.com and go, oh, that's what this person is. Here's who they are. Here's what they do. Okay, like, now I get it. Yeah, this might sound obvious. But not a lot of people do this.

Arvid Kahl 59:29
It's obvious because once you understand it, it's clear that if you didn't do it, you would just leave something on the table. But to get to the point to put in the effort to set up a website to put in the effort to even keep your things updated, some people just don't immediately it's kind of a thing where you look for immediate results. But these things take time. They are kind of opportunities that happen when they happen because they are externalized right? You look for them. It's not that they push like these people push their job search out there. You know that somebody needs to find an expert and then you look. So I think it's a wonderful thing to keep these things updated. And to understand the value that they potentially could have. That is really strong and personal website, 100%. Right there with you, you have full control, you can if you need to start a newsletter, you can just collect people's email to put them on a list in case you want to reach out to them. All of this is possible on your personal site. It's not possible anywhere else.

Amanda Natividad 1:00:28
Totally. Yeah, yeah. And like, I have my personal site where I have, like my substack signup embedded. Like, I could always move away from substack if I wanted to, but the email capture or the mechanism is there.

Arvid Kahl 1:00:43
Yeah

Amanda Natividad 1:00:44
I can change it if I want to.

Arvid Kahl 1:00:47
Yeah, can still keep your email list from substack and just import it into the next email service provider that you use, right? That's the kind of control that you have a website that you will never have on Twitter. Like even if you export your Twitter list, like you're doing, all you have is a list of names and bios, which is great and apparently very useful. But like if you have to start a new account, that means nothing to you, right? Or nothing to them, like you're not gonna get the those connections we established. So owning the means of communication is kind of what I meant with this having the list of emails, that is a very important thing. Still, for discovery, Twitter and LinkedIn are important places. So if people want to find you and your journey, where do you want them to go?

Amanda Natividad 1:01:30
Oh, man! Today, where should they go? Maybe just LinkedIn. That's where all of us b2b nerds are. I'm still on Twitter or x and I'm on Threads. But LinkedIn is probably the most reliable place for me right now.

Arvid Kahl 1:01:43
Yes. Is that amandanet as well, just like website?

Amanda Natividad 1:01:46
Yeah

Arvid Kahl 1:01:46
All right. Well, I guess you're that on all platforms, right? You have that handle wherever you go. I would certainly recommend people who are listening and watching this, to follow you on all these platforms because you never know. Right? The opportunities may present themselves. Thank you so much, Amanda. That was a wonderful, wonderful view into your life and to your expertise. Thanks so much for sharing everything you shared with me today.

Amanda Natividad 1:02:08
Oh, my gosh, thank you for having me, Arvid. This was so much fun.

Arvid Kahl 1:02:11
It was really nice to chat. Thank you.

And that's it for today. I will now briefly thank my sponsor, acquire.com. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a really solid SaaS product, you acquired all those customers, and everything is generating really consistent monthly recurring revenue. That's the dream of every SaaS founder, right? Problem is you're not growing for whatever reason, maybe it's lack of skill or lack of focus or probably lack of interest. You don't know. You just feel stuck in your business with your business. What should you do? Well, the story that I would like to hear is that you buckled down, you reignited the fire, and you started working on the business, not just in the business and all those things you did, like audience building and marketing and sales and outreach, they really helped you to go down this road, six months down the road, making all that money. You tripled your revenue and you have this hyper successful business. That is the dream. The reality, unfortunately, is not as simple as this. And the situation that you might find yourself in is looking different for every single founder who's facing this crossroad. This problem is common, but it looks different every time. But what doesn't look different every time it's the story that here just ends up being one of inaction and stagnation. Because the business becomes less and less valuable over time and then eventually completely worthless if you don't do anything. So if you find yourself here, already at this point or you think your story is likely headed down a similar road, I would consider a third option and that is selling your business on acquire.com. Because you capitalizing on the value of your time today is a pretty smart move. It's certainly better than not doing anything. And acquire.com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of founders already. Just go check it out at try.acquire.com/arvid, it's me and see for yourself, if this is the right option for you, your business at this time. You might just want to wait a bit and see if it works out half a year from now or a year from now. Just check it out. It's always good to be in the know.

Thank you for listening to The Bootstrapped Founder today. I really appreciate that. You can find me on Twitter @arvidkahl. And you'll find my books and my Twitter course there too. If you want to support me and this show, please subscribe to my YouTube channel, get the podcast in your podcast player of choice, whatever that might be. Do let me know. It'd be interesting to see and leave a rating and a review by going to (http://ratethispodcast.com/founder). It really makes a big difference if you show up there because then this podcast shows up in other people's feeds. And that's I think, where we all would like it to be just helping other people learn and see and understand new things. Any of this will help the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day and bye bye.