294: RoxCodes — Building Dreams and Letting Go
Download MP3Arvid Kahl: Today, I'm talking
to Rox. His motto is building
cool shit every day until I
achieve my dreams and cool shit
he is building. He's behind
thumbnailtest.com, a very
interesting SaaS business that
competes with YouTube. He
recently had some acquisition
news. I'm going to talk to him
about that and about how hard it
is to deal with the reality of
giving up your business as a
founder. This episode is
sponsored by acquire.com. More
on that later. Now, here's Rox.
Welcome to the show. Last time
we talked on your Twitch stream,
it was really cool. We turned
that into a four hour
conversation. Let's see how long
we'll chat today. Rox, what's
happening in your life right
now?
Rox: Oh my God. So good to hear
from you, buddy. It's been too
long. Two years, man crazy.
What's happened in the past two
years, I started and sold
thumbnailtest.com, my first big
acquisition. I met my girlfriend
who I've been dating for about
two years now. Our anniversary
is like next week, Aprilynne, a
legend. Let's see. I worked for
Mr. Beast for a few months. I
built a bunch of creative tools
that did not succeed other than
Thumbnail Test. I moved out of
Thailand. I moved to New York to
Portugal to San Francisco to
London for a little bit hanging
out London now. And yeah, I'm
negotiating my next big move the
next big business play from Rox
Codes. That is I think that's
the big two year update.
Arvid Kahl: That is a bizarre
amount of things to do, right?
Any of these things would
already be a massive win for
anybody. Right? And then
combination, man, that's really
cool. I don't even know what to
start with. Like we had
Aprilynne on the show and she's
spectacular. Right? So good
choice right there. I am a user
of thumbnailtest.com So that's
the spectacular product,
perfect. I love Nomad so cool.
Like you getting around.
Everything is really cool. But
the whole Mr. Beast thing, maybe
we can start with that because
that is something that I just
cannot skip. Right? As somebody
who is a YouTube aficionado and
whenever, for some reason,
whenever my browser logs me out
of YouTube, you know, you go to
the default YouTube page. The
first video is always Mr. Beast.
Right? That's always what it is.
So how did that happen? Because
I think like working for him and
his team probably is something
that a lot of people on YouTube
are interested in. How did you
get that?
Rox: Yeah, they found me on
Twitter and Twitch. So context,
I used to live stream coding, as
you know well. And I haven't
been doing that very much like I
kind of haven't done a stream in
probably a year about. But they
found me on Twitter like a month
after I put out Thumbnail test
like so early. And who would
future be my boss saw me
tweeting about Thumbnail test,
then watched me stream building
Thumbnail test for like two
hours, then DM me on Twitter and
was like, hey, do you want a
job? Want to come work for Mr.
Beast? We pay well. And at first
I said no, actually. And I was
like, you know, that's like, you
know, I got a bunch. Because
it's like, I don't want to be an
employee, you know and I know
this is gonna be an employee.
But, you know, we talked about
it. We went back and forth. And
I was like, you know, maybe
there's a crazy opportunity
here. Maybe I could start like
an even bigger YouTube tools
business with them. Maybe we
could do this, maybe we could do
that. So they do three month
trials. So I decided, okay, you
know what? I can do three
months. Let's try it three
months. And I flew out to
Greenville, North Carolina,
where only they are until I
built you know internals secret
tools for them for a little
while, did a lot of experiments.
And at the end of the three
months, decided not to stick
with it. That I still wanted to
go back off on my own and
continue Thumbnail test, which
as we now know, was probably a
good call. But yeah, I mean,
amazing people over there, very
smart, very capable. Yeah, but
just not what I wanted to do
long term, I think I realized.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that stands
out. Right? Like even just your
initial reaction as a founder of
I don't know, like other people
jump at that opportunity
immediately. Like they would
already be typing yes just as
that other person told them the
story or whatever, right? Some
people would have no issue at
all with making this their next
thing but for somebody who's
building a project, I kind of
get it. I get it. You want to
see your own thing succeed,
right?
Rox: Yeah. And at some point,
it's like, I don't do a lot of
math, but if you do the napkin
math, you kind of realize like,
you know, pretty much what I
realized with Thumbnail test is
kind of like, I only have to get
to so much MRR on a product that
I can then exit to make X
dollars. And if I stay here, the
max I'll ever make is, you know,
half of X dollars. So even like,
you know, a moderately
successful indie hacker or like
medium successful indie hacker
probably ends up getting more.
And not to say everything is
dollars, but it's kind of just
this thing of like, well, how
much am I using my potential, I
guess? You know, am I going into
a place where I will be 100%
like of my, you know, I guess
potential like, 100% of what I
could ever do is going to happen
here? Or is it going to be you
know, 10% or 20%? You know, like
if I were there, I was going to
be coding, you know. I was going
to always be coding and I was
going to be like, leading coders
at most. And, you know at some
point, I had realized even like
I don't want to code all the
time in the long run. Like, I
actually got pretty burnt out on
coding. And so even things just
like that, you come to those
conclusions, you know and like,
you probably know Paddy
Galloway, potentially, who's a
very, very, like, probably one
of the best YouTube consultants
in the world for those who don't
know. You know, I chatted with
him when I was going to work for
Jimmy and the team. And he had
pretty much come to similar
conclusions. And he had
basically said, like, you know,
he worked with them for a while
and had also decided to go off
on his own realizing, you know
at some point, it doesn't always
add up, which isn't to say that
Mr. Beast doesn't pay super well
or that they don't have like
good incentive structure or any
of those things. For 99.9% of
people, it's an amazing
opportunity. But I have this
weird thing in life if I keep
accidentally living other
people's dreams. And I'm still
trying to get to the point of
living my own, you know.
Arvid Kahl: That's funny. Yeah,
that's the story of employment.
Like in a nutshell, that's
really what it is until you
realize that you could also live
your own dream, which then it
becomes a nightmare kinda
situation in which we don't want
to find ourselves in, right?
That's yeah. One thing stands
out here. Or, of course, several
things stand out, like the fact
that you stopped streaming kind
of feels related to burnout in
coding. But we can dive into
that at some other point. What I
kind of want to dive in first
because you were talking about
being a nomad and traveling from
place to place. You were saying,
like, you have to get to a
certain point of MRR for you to
feel this makes sense to build
or to exit to be acquired with
then that is a strong enough
case. Did that change depending
on the location that you were
in? Because living in San
Francisco requires a totally
different amount of money to
make from any project compared
to somewhere in Thailand or
other places in Southeast Asia?
Rox: Oh, yeah, that's an
interesting question. I mean,
for sure it changes how you do
the math. Because, you know, I
sold for let's say, like low to
mid six figures, right? That
after tax after lawyer fees
after giving a chunk to my dad
because he was with me the whole
time. After paying off all the
bills, I accrued from two months
of not getting paid because I
cut my own income because
acquisitions are weird. After
all that I'm ending with maybe
enough money to pay for like my
girlfriend and my expenses for
like, a couple years out here,
you know, a few years if we're
generous, right? Which is, it's
some freedom. It is and I don't
know want to like, you know,
misjudge that but it doesn't
feel like that much more freedom
than I've ever had. Right? I
didn't make millions, you know.
I'm not sitting on enough money
that for the rest of my life, I
don't have to worry. But if I
were in Thailand and we're
spending $1,000 a month, yeah.
Okay, I could probably have
bought myself 5-10 years or
something. Yeah, so it is
different. But I think it's
always in context, right? I've
realized that the life I want
happens to be out here. Like,
it's just this is the place for
me. I love San Francisco so
much. And I love the people out
here and the opportunity out
here. And that's worth every
penny to me. And I'd rather
spend a lot and live where I
want to and live the life that I
want to as opposed to live
cheaply. And then you know,
hunker down on every dollar I
have, you know. Yeah
Arvid Kahl: That feels like a
slightly opposed to the common
Rox: Yeah, I got burnt out on
the traveling stuff. Like I
indie hacker, digital nomads
kind of theme that you find a
lot on Twitter, right? And
nothing against either choice.
really I think I'm kind of over
the Nomad life. And I think like
Obviously, a personal choice is
a personal choice. But you hear
Pieter Levels is an example,
right? Telling a lot of people
that it's very easy to go to, I
don't know Bali. I don't know if
Bali is still the case. But you
know, a place in Southeast Asia
where it's kind of cheap. You
have a lot of other founders who
have the same dream and want to
do the same thing. Make those
same thing happen. And you live
a different life, you live a
very inexpensive life. And any
business you build very quickly
is not just revenue positive,
like profitable but it can
actually sustain you. Whereas
that number is quite different
if you go to the United States,
Silicon Valley in particular or
even Canada where I live, right?
It takes a lot more money to
make money on a project like
this just from the living
expenses that you have. So did
you choose San Francisco for the
people or what was it? Because
that is an expensive place.
Pete has the numbers. I think
the average Nomad is like, two
or three years. So I did it for
like, a couple years or like
maybe a year and a half. No,
actually, yeah, like a couple of
years. And so I think I hit
pretty standard, you know, time
when I wanted to exit, so I knew
I wanted to be somewhere. But
yeah, I think the big thing I
realized was like it's always
been the people. Like, even when
I went to Thailand, it was to be
around Pete. It was to be around
Javi and Andre and everybody out
there, you know. And then when I
went to Portugal, it was the
same thing. But like, meet them
all again and be around them all
again. And I think I identify a
little bit more with the SF
world than with the indie hacker
world. Like, I love the
bootstrapping and I love the you
know, just ship it kind of
mentality and everything. But I
think I also have, like
aspirations that are beyond, you
know, make a million dollar
business and then like, life's
good and then I do nothing, you
know, which isn't to say like, I
don't want to minimize indie
hacking to that. But it is to
say most people's aspiration
with indie hacking is to pay
their bills. Like, that's
generally where you start and
then like to live a better life
by continuing to pay your bills
and then maybe an exit. For me,
it's you know, indie hacking was
always supposed to just be a
stepping stone to playing the
bigger games and trying for the
bajillions of dollars. And you
just you come to SF and you go
to a random party and you meet
guys worth hundreds of millions
to billions of dollars, you
shake random hands, and all of a
sudden, like your whole life can
change in a conversation. And
that didn't feel as true when I
was doing all the Nomad stuff.
And as a guy and I think this is
maybe like a perspective you
really get when you're in
content on is like, it's just
that you're one video off from
your whole life changing, your
one partnership off from your
whole life changing, you know.
Like, any one of these things
could completely shift
everything for you. So that net
opportunity is just so high. And
the people here are all trying
so goddamn hard. Like it's not
even like Thailand, where it's
like, oh, there's the indie
hackers. And then there's
everybody. It's like,
everybody's the fucking startup
people here. Like, it's crazy.
So, yeah, it's just like, it
does wonders for the mental. And
it does wonders for the
opportunity, you know. Like,
I've met people with channels
that have 14 million
subscribers, just at a random
party here. And then we became
friends. Now I text them
sometimes, you know and that's
just like, sure Thumbnail test
has also brought me that but
rarely in real life, you know.
But yeah, it's just, I just
haven't found anything else like
this. Yeah. So this is the place
for me.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, makes perfect
sense. You chose the potential
of opportunity, right? Like the
fact that just through
serendipity, you might run into
the right person at the right
time, that also has not only the
intention to make it big but
also is themselves in the
network that allows them to get
to that point. Yeah, it makes
perfect sense. Honestly, my
story with Silicon Valley is
quite similar. I was there like
2012-2013, my first ever, like
real thing that I did after
university where I dropped out
twice, great skills right there.
Like was finding work for a
company in San Francisco. And
even though I worked remotely
for them from Germany, it was
still I visited on occasion. And
the first time I was there, like
two days into my first visit, I
was sitting on a couch just
having beers with like a Product
Manager from Facebook, which was
bizarre. Like for somebody who
grew up in Germany and having
had no contact to this community
of people whatsoever, being
thrown in there. And then just
like chilling and talking about
their Africa expansion, you
know, that kind of stuff, it
felt surreal because it was.
Like this is access that nobody
really has. And if you get
there, you have a chance to
maybe have that kind of access.
So I very much understand this
serendipitous thing that you're
moving into, makes perfect sense
to me. And I guess the whole
stepping stone approach, in
particular, Rob Walling was on
the show here and explained the
whole stair stepping, right?
Where you start with info
products or services or
something or you build
pluginsand then you go to your
own SaaS. And from there, you go
to something much bigger. It's
taking little tiny steps that
build on top of each other at a
time. So that being said, what
is your next step here? Like
what is the step after building
and exiting a SaaS business with
the numbers that you just
mentioned? What's the next
thing?
Rox: Yeah, great question. So I
am pursuing something I've
wanted to pursue for a while.
Being in creator economy for a
long time, you really get a
sense of the potential of
distribution, which we've seen a
lot with physical products. Mr.
Beast sells Feastables, Logan
Paul and KSI have Prime their
hydration drink. And Chamberlain
has Chamberlain coffee. So many
of these businesses doing
millions 10s of millions,
hundreds of millions, literal
billions in the case of like
Prime. I want to try and
endeavor to do software in the
same way. So creator led
software or you know creator led
brand that is software. So I'm
currently negotiating the exact
terms, but with intention to
partner with a very large
creator to build software to
sell to their audience and
beyond not to sound like Buzz
Lightyear. But to see if I can,
in a matter of months, replicate
what has previously taken me
years. And like you said, those
kinds of like stairstep levels
in creator economy, it's very
similar, where it's like AdSense
is 100, you know, the like,
course level it's like 100 level
is AdSense. And then 200 level
is, you know, you sell some kind
of like, course or education.
300 is like coaching personal or
community. 400-500, you start to
talk about a brand that could be
acquired like 400 is a brand and
a product. 500 is a product that
could be acquired. So it's a
product separate from your name,
that happens to use your name.
And that's the space that I
really am trying to play in is
can I build software that is
multiplied by the people I
partner with? And then still,
stand alone is valuable, is
powerful, has legs and is a full
business that can then be sold.
And can I go from making
hundreds of 1000s to making
millions in life by taking that
and then maybe over the next
5-10 years taking it to its
absolute, you know, 1,000,000%
and maybe get to the crazy
numbers I'm hoping for in life,
you know.
Arvid Kahl: That's so awesome.
What an interesting idea. Like,
that's something I've literally
never thought about, like doing
this kind of which is probably
great for you because otherwise
you would have some competition.
Rox: Let me hear.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, this is a
wonderful idea because I do know
all of these brands you just
mentioned, right? The physical
products, the Feastables and the
Prime and all that stuff, you
just cannot escape this because
these creators are so strong in
putting out the word. So in a
world that more and more becomes
digital, I mean, let's just look
at the whole apple vision pro
thing and how it's perceived,
right? We were all laughing at
VR headsets for the longest time
and all of a sudden, people find
actual use cases for this. And
people are still laughing
because Vitriol exists on the
internet. But there are more and
more people who are willing to
give this a shot. And anything
in that world is effectively
software. So I'm not saying you
should do VR stuff all the time.
But I think there's a tendency,
right? The people's adoption of
AI, people's adoption of VR, it
becomes a thing that people use
because it's actually useful for
the very first time and
approachable. So you building
something there. It's
interesting, I kind of want to
ask you more about it. I just,
it seems like you're kind of
hesitant to tell me the details,
which is fine. Because if you're
still working on it, but where's
that going? Like can you
exemplify it, maybe?
Rox: I'll tell you my like 12
month plan on this. I'm
partnering with a creator who
has a little bit of a wider
brand. So they're not too niche
down. And I'm treating it as a
product studio with the intent
of basically creating like a
validation engine that just
figures out if something could
sell to his audience, could sell
pass his audience, right? And if
those things are true, then it's
the thing that we pursue, right?
So a lot of early testing, a lot
of like, you know, A/B testing
on landing pages and pre sales
and this and that all that. I'm
starting with bass hits. So the
creator has sold products
before. We're going to try and
digitize those. And that's going
to be you know, the first couple
of months and see how much
revenue we can pull from that.
And then use that to fund the
next projects. I'm not writing
the code for this. I have an
amazing engineer friend that I
brought on, who is functionally
my CTO and who's gonna get a
bunch of a good deal, let's say
excuse me. And hopefully, if all
goes well, the idea is kind of
like have him build MVPs. And
like V ones, put those out into
the world. If they start
succeeding, bring on another dev
to run and maintain that, keep
that going. And as that makes
more profit, it becomes its own
business. And then my main guy
goes on to the next one and
starts building on to the next
one. And we just keep launching
and seeing what works and if
something really starts to break
out then we'll devote all the
resources back to that kind of
thing. But I'm treating this I
don't want to treat it like I
have a bunch of VC money right?
Like I want to break even on the
year, that's the plan. But I
want to try and like spend a
million and make a million, you
know, that's kind of like the
outline of it. And if I could
pull that off and have broken
even on making a ton of software
with very expensive software
engineers in several different
products, that's a huge deal.
But it's tough. There's not a
lot of like case studies to
follow here. It's a little bit
like blue ocean or Greenfield or
whatever buzzword you want to
use for it.
Arvid Kahl: Take another color
and another noun
Rox: Orange, meadow. But
honestly, it's really exciting
to me because I would love to
feel like I was one of the first
to pull it off. Well, and I'm
sure someone in the comments is
gonna know. They're gonna be
like, oh, but you know, insert
guy did its thing. And it's
another guy did this another
thing. And this fitness guy did
this fitness app. And it's like,
yeah, that's 300 level. But it's
just, it's so interesting to me
because it intuitively feels
like it should work. But I've
already found there to be a lot
of complexity even just before
I've really gotten sprinting on
it.
Arvid Kahl: What kind of
complexity are you talking about
here?
Rox: Finding the creator, way
harder than people think, A.
Getting a good enough idea that
will actually sell to the
audience, very tough 9 out of 10
times and you end up boiling
down to it just being education
again, most of the time.
Building a thing that is not
education is the hard thing, the
evaluation of products. So like
that iteration, like what that
looks like without incidentally,
burning the audience, you know,
on trying to sell them too much
or ask them too many questions.
You know, you only get so many
hits and you know, email lists,
Telegram group, YouTube channel,
each thing. Again, they are
finite resources to some extent
because if you post 100 YouTube
shorts advertising your product,
everybody's gonna unsubscribe,
you know and you can kill
yourself. So the brand risk
overall is a big thing. The
quality bar, you can't really be
super indie hacker about it. You
can't just make the first
version really crappy and put it
out into the world. It's got
millions of followers worth of
brand tied to it. So it has to
be good. So if you usually can
launch it, like a 5 out of 10
quality, you kind of need to be
hitting a seven or an eight
before you can even be out the
door with this, which sucks. So
it means it's a little more
expensive. You need a little
more of a design eye or a
designer. So I'm finding that to
be tough. Yet, there's just a
lot. There's a lot of little
pieces and a lot of big pieces,
but the biggest one I found was
finding a creator who's going to
care, you know, finding someone
for whom this isn't just like a
course, that goes out. And then
it's their, you know, your worst
nightmare is you work on
something for two months with
some guy, you soft launch it to
like, let's say just their
newsletter or they just tweeted
out, the reception isn't great.
And they cancel the whole
project and you lost two months
of your life. Yeah. So that's
why we came into this with the
product studio mindset. Because
that way, like the failure is
baked in. The throwing away of
things is baked in. And so
again, it's like slowly as I
find these things out, I shift
and I adjust. Like initially, I
wasn't going to do the product
studio concept. It was just
going to be hey, let's build X
together. Like let's just decide
on a thing and let's build that
thing. But we moved to this, you
know. I've pitched a lot of
creators. You know, I've been
doing this for like the past
year. I've been lately pitching
creators that I know on this
concept. And it wasn't until you
know, a few months ago that I
really found someone where I was
like, okay, I think you have the
right priority. I think you will
care, which is my number one
thing. Yeah, so it's just
complicated. You're not in
nearly as much control. And you
know, coming from indie hacking,
when it's like I am the
everything going to cool,
somebody else is going to be how
this gets to the world to some
extent. I'm going to need to
kind of, you know, be on the
same page with them and keep
them excited and like maintain
this other person's energy about
a thing, stuff.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that's an
interesting point, like the kind
of psychosocial part of this
where you need to actually
motivate somebody who's not
necessarily a software person,
right? To care about software
because of the implications that
it might have for their
audience. Let's maybe talk about
risk a little bit here. Because
you just mentioned brand risk is
one of the big things. How much
risk do you have as the person
in your partnership, right? As
the software, the maker? Is
there more risk than an indie
hacker would have or even less
like, it kind of feels like you
have some kind of cushion in the
sense that that creator has
budget that you can tap into?
Even though you still build
these kinds of bootstrapping
things inside of that it kind of
feels like that, but it's not VC
money, where you can just
frivolously spend it and hope
for mass market domination. So
what's the risk distribution for
you there?
Rox: That's a great question.
It's gonna be if somebody else
tried to do what I'm doing, I
don't know that they would have
the same conditions I do. Right?
If you approach a different
creator with a different deal,
all of this stuff, like again,
if you call it green field or
whatever, is very like, there is
a precedent very much. There's
these guys that have done like
some of the fitness apps in the
world and everything. And
they're walking around going to
creators and saying, we'll fund
the whole project 50/50 if
you'll launch it to our
parameters, like, we'll pay the
whole thing. They'll pay for
100% and then split equity
50/50. So that's probably like,
the bar to compare yourself to.
That's what like the big dev
shop guys who have tried, maybe
like more than 400 ish level of
what I'm aiming to do. That's
what they've done. I am in a bit
of a better scenario. So I don't
have much risk. And even if I
did have more risk, I just sold
Thumbnail tests. So as a human,
my risk is relatively low. But I
will say, I, in some ways, have
chosen to take on more risk for
the potential of more upside.
But I think by most metrics,
most people if they saw the
details of the deal would not
say I was in a particularly
risky scenario, like I should be
fine. I'm not getting $0. I have
given myself a non trivial
salary. But it's also not really
being treated as investment.
Like there's a reason I want to
break even, you know. I want to
basically be able to have given
everything back and feel like
we're just, you know, executing
on profit. I don't want to draw
down too much. And anything that
I take will eventually be paid
back, can say that much. So it's
very much not investment, it's
more of if anything, like is a
closer comparison to the kind of
structure that we'll have.
Arvid Kahl: So from a founder
perspective, what I'm curious
building this product studio,
like how tight are you to that
creator? Like, just, you know,
how do you avoid the whole whale
situation where you have like,
just this one person that gives
you work? You know? And you
really have to make it work for
them? Do you expect to kind of
branch out? Or do you want to
really focus on this creator for
now?
Rox: That's a great question.
Focus on this creator, for sure.
I am 100% in on this, on this
one person. And I'm comfortable
with that, based on everything I
said earlier of me thinking this
is the right person to partner
with. And the, sorry, repeat the
second half of the question.
Arvid Kahl: Let me think what I
asked.
Rox: Classic
Arvid Kahl: It's like, how do
you avoid like being over
dependent on that particular?
Rox: The framing of our
partnership is reversed from
what one would expect. I bring
ideas. We both have to agree on
an idea before it goes out.
Right? So I can say no to an
idea they have, they can say no
to an idea I have. And but if we
both agree on something, that's
the thing that goes through. So
and that's obviously because you
know, they don't want me to go
build, you know, a porn website
and then put it onto their
brand. And then it would just be
fair. And obviously, I don't
want to be at their whim. Right.
So I'm not being treated like a
dev shop. I am, you know, their
entire product arm as far as
digital products could ever be.
And you know, depending on how
it goes, future creators, if I
did work with them might end up
coming in under this. Because
there's also like a very well
connected creator who might
bring in more deal flow there.
So that structure is going to be
interesting. So that's a little
bit TBD on how that goes. But
like, I am comfortable enough
and confident enough in this
person's brand. And in
particular, the growth I think
their brand will continue to see
over the next year five years,
that the opportunity for me of
having the right to all of the
digital products there is a big
deal to some extent.
Arvid Kahl: That's interesting.
This sounds like a new gold rush
mentality in a space that and I
mean, it's in the best possible
way, right? There are new claims
to stake in this for software
entrepreneurs like now that
craters are starting to
understand that there's value
not just in making chocolate or
energy drinks, or sorry,
hydration drinks, just be
precise. You know, like there's
also value in creating products
that keep an audience engaged
and keep an audience virtually,
in the influence fear of an
individual creator. I wonder if
you're gonna set some kind of
standard with this. I hope so
certainly for you, or at least
that you are a subject matter
expert in that field of being a
software entrepreneur that works
with creators. That is a really,
really interesting thing. I'm
mesmerized by this. It's really
cool.
Rox: Thank you. I don't know how
much I'll be able to build in
public. That's the only tough
part.
Arvid Kahl: Yeah, I was
wondering about that, like you
are, in some ways, you already
kind of retracted a little bit
from streaming and that kind of
stuff, which we should maybe
dive into why you stopped
streaming, but this is going to
be so much harder, even in the
kind of secretive world of
creators making choices, right?
Rox: Yeah, I hate keeping
secrets. Like, I as a human, it
feels like lying to me. And I'm
so used to just like, I've
always lived with my heart on my
sleeve. And, you know, my
numbers on my fucking website,
you know, like, everything's
just open, open, open. And like,
you know, even with the
acquisition, like the fact that
I'm not allowed to say some
things like, honestly, really
hurts. Like, it's very difficult
for me, emotionally. And I
think, like I don't think being
100% open is like this necessity
in life. And I honestly do think
like, there are some downsides.
And it's probably good to get to
a point in my life where I have
to get more mature about what I
share, in general. But it's
definitely like, it's personal
growth that doesn't feel great.
It's personal growth, by
necessity not by preference.
Which, yeah, it's just rough.
Like even all of what I've said
about the deal so far, I already
don't know if I'm maybe saying
too much about that. And I can't
know because we haven't struck
the entire deal. Like right now,
it's still conversations.
There's no paperwork, I don't
know what's gonna happen. And
when I know, I'll know. But you
know, it's like I don't imagine
a lot of creators are going to
share their exact numbers until
those numbers are so insane that
it's, you know, non relatable.
It doesn't matter if Mr. B's
tells you he made $100 million
selling chocolate, doesn't
matter if Logan Paul tells you
he made a billion dollars in
sales on sorry, he sold a
billion dollars of prime, not
made a billion dollars. But
those, like outside of that
there are people who say they
made millions. There's people
like Ali Abdaal, who will still
like share their full year in
numbers, which I think is
beautiful. There's just as many
who like, don't tell us all,
nobody needs to know our
numbers. And it's weird because
I feel like it's normal to share
numbers. But the reality of
business is it absolutely is
not, you know, like 99% of
people don't share anything.
It's just you keep your numbers
and you're happy with them. And
life's good. That's the whole
thing. And Twitter's not your
main market.
Arvid Kahl: That's the thing,
right? Like not only is building
in public seasonal, like it
works for a certain stage of
business. And it kind of stops
working the moment you grow to a
size where your competitors have
too much of an eye on you.
Right? And I would perfectly
admit the fact that building in
public is not for everybody at
all times, obviously. Right?
There is no silver bullet for
anything in business. It's a
constantly evolving space. But
particularly if you're not in a
space where building in public
is normalized. And I think
YouTube is occasionally that but
most of the time not. Right?
There's a lot of behind the
scenes stuff that is still
heavily choreographed, right?
It's not real behind the scenes,
it's behind the scenes as
content, so there are layers to
this. So if that is not a space
where you are expected to
operate like this, operating
like it will confuse people to
the point that for some reason,
which is so weird, they don't
trust you even though you are
extremely transparent, right?
There is so much more reason to
trust you. But the fact that you
put trust so forward in a
secretive world can quickly flip
around. So that's an interesting
observation, particularly also
around exits and acquisitions. I
remember that too. Like, we have
stipulations in our contract
that I cannot talk about
regarding our exit, even though
I would like to. And I was also
quite surprised by this. And I'm
not going to talk about it.
Because you know, I want to keep
the money, but it's a bizarre
thing to see somebody else's
fears or somebody else's risk
judgment impact your own life.
This is fear for you. Right? It
sounds to me like you went
through an acquisition, which
was great. But it was also not
that great. Can you tell me
maybe more about your emotional
state as it were and as it is?
Rox: Dude, it's been so tough.
I'm like, I'm the guy who gets
sad, let me be clear and I
personally feel like I have this
problem. My friend has described
it as catastrophizing my own
life. So like, you know, I don't
go from 0 to 100 in terms of
happy, but I quickly go from 0
to 100 in terms of sad, right?
So like, if something's bad in
my head, it's very easy for it
to become very quickly, very
bad. You can say I kind of round
up, round down. So like, if it's
under a 25, I can keep it to a
zero. If it's over 25, it jumps
to 100. And just like, selling
Thumbnail Test, man, every piece
of it was just so stressful.
Negotiations were so tough. I
felt like a bad person
sometimes, like I owed it to
people to be making a certain
deal or to not make a certain
deal or to do something this way
or that way or structure it this
way or that way, even when I had
options. Like, it made me feel
like a bad person sometimes,
like just for even negotiating.
And I think that's just because
it's hard for me to
differentiate like, business
discussion from like human
discussion. And they all like a
lot of these people also, I will
say the build in public really
paid off in the acquisition
because people trusted me
inherently more so because I
shared stuff. The only thing
that they didn't trust so much
was that I wouldn't share stuff,
which is like, yeah, okay,
pretty fair actually. I think
it's a really good read, is I
have trouble about here and
stuff, but I'll try. Yeah. But,
you know, then once the deal was
signed, you know, realizing I
had agreed to things that were
like, going to be tough, you
know, from signing the LOI to
signing the actual contract was
probably like a month. And that
was my decision because I wanted
to get lawyers, but like, even
getting lawyers, it's like, you
realize, oh, if I'm not the one
who wrote the contract, I'm in a
position of weakness by such a
long shot because now I'm
suggesting changes, right? They
get to be the default. And that
makes the life that much harder
with the contract. And so then
there's all that emotion. And
then, you know, I spent like,
eight grand on lawyers. And if I
hadn't been very aggressive and
very careful, I would have spent
like, 20. And that's like, you
know, almost like that's closing
in on, yeah. Let's just say a
sizable percentage of the
acquisition at that point.
Right? Which sucks so much that
like, you know, a whole number
digit percentage of my
acquisition went to paying
lawyers, which evidently,
supposedly a regular thing, but
usually that's on the size of
billions, the size of hundreds
of 1000s. So that horrible and
then you send them all the
changes and then they feel
terrible about it. So then
they're like, oh, hey, the deal
is gonna go sideways because of
paperwork, you know and it's
just like, oh, fuck, okay, like
let's figure this out. So you
figure it out, you get all the
terms agreed to. But then you
finally sign. And then
everything that you think this
contract is got to have
everything in the world and then
the next day, when you start the
process, immediately you realize
there's 10 things you don't know
how to handle that are not
clarified in this contract. And
all of a sudden, like what was
really tough for me, it was like
I still had all the costs on my
credit cards, but I wasn't
allowed to take revenue out
because the revenue is actually
there. So the costs are also
technically theirs. But until I
had finished transferring all
the accounts, obviously, they
couldn't magically
instantaneously update all the
credit card info and everything.
So you know, they paid me back
later. But for those several
weeks and months, I had also
been making no money because I
couldn't take money out of the
business starting when we signed
that contract. So you know,
overnight, I went from having
like an income that paid my
bills and more but I don't have
savings and I don't live like
that, all back in and all that
good stuff. I was like poor for
what did I have? Two months,
like I was caught, like I pulled
every dollar out of every
backup. So I pulled every dollar
out of my Bar Mitzvah account
from when I was 13, which is the
thing you're not supposed to
touch until you're like 30 plus.
I'm about to turn 26. And I had
to like take a loan out against
myself, which I've now paid back
I finally got paid, thank God.
But like, it felt like
everything that could be bad was
bad during it. And that's just
me talking about the logistics
and the money. But like I would
get angry. I would get into a
deep dark hole of depression. I
would constantly think every day
watching the business grow while
I could take no money out of it
and the sale had not finalized.
Like every single day during the
acquisition, I regretted it.
Even now I feel like I still
regret it. And it was it's just
so tough because it's like
there's some aspect of it that
was like this tool was my baby,
right? My whole life changed
because I built this tool. Mr.
Beast thing happened because I
built this tool. I've gone to
all these conferences this whole
YouTube world knows about me.
It's all because of this one
tool. None of that happened
without this. Right? And I
didn't realize that until I
finally like signed the papers
everything but like selling it
really, like, felt like I just
sold a piece of myself. And so
much fear and doubt have come in
since. I am sorry. It's been so
tough to think that I've like,
sold my soul is kind of what it
felt like, you know, like
everything that I built all
these relationships are no
longer mine. This tool is no
longer mine. A lot of these
people who buy the tool based on
me based on like, oh, this guy
worked for Mr. Beast, I trust
him right like to have removed
that now, in some way feels like
just inherently, you know, like,
am I betraying people by doing
this? Like, am I selling out?
You know, I know I didn't want
to keep working on Thumbnail
Test forever. But it could have
become a side thing. I had hired
an engineer. I was only working
on it for a few hours a week,
really. And few hours a week to
pay my bills and have marketing
budget was pretty crazy,
actually.
Arvid Kahl: That's not too bad
Rox: It's not at all. It was
growing. It's growing like 10%
month over month by itself. God
bless. And so all of a sudden,
it was like all my friends who
looked at the numbers, you know,
back before the acquisition
finalized and I was still able
to talk about them. They were
like, you're crazy. Like, purely
based on MRR and profit and
multiples and all that. But you
know, the tool is risky, right?
So I was okay with taking lower
numbers like I don't treat it
like your usual SaaS exit.
Because you know, YouTube's
putting out AB testing. So the
core functionality of the
platform, the core feature that
everything is based off of is
hilariously competitive.
Arvid Kahl: With the platform
you're building
Rox: With the platform itself.
Sounds like yeah, okay. Fair
enough, I'll probably not get
any crazy numbers out this guy.
Arvid Kahl: Dude, I think you
made the absolute right choice
like and this is my personal
opinion, obviously. Right? And
first of all, thank you for
sharing this in such emotional
candor and depth. I feel it
resonate with a very, very deep
part of myself as well because I
had the exact same experience
selling Feedback Panda. Like
that was our baby. That was the
thing that we built
relationships with. It's the
thing that allowed me to be part
of a community and to have
something to show for. And
through that, you know, the sale
it was very taxing emotionally,
just like what you explained.
And it was taxing in a grieving
way. There's grief in losing
this, in selling it and giving
it to somebody else. And I don't
know if this is going to help
you or not. But I still
occasionally feel it, that
grief. But I look at it, I look
back at it. And I see where I am
now because of it not because of
the business. But because of the
sale and everything beyond that,
that came from moving up one
step. Right? And that shows me
that I made the right choice.
And I think you are at the
precipice of this with the
project that you're working on.
And give it a couple months. And
you're going to look back at
this, hopefully and see oh,
yeah, that's the step. Now I can
see the step because I'm one
step above, you know. I very
much understand how you feel
right now. And what is the
situation that you're in because
it is a weird thing, like
whoever does this kind of stuff,
right? Whoever built something
from nothing, that is uniquely
it's an identity thing, right?
It's a part of you. You built
this. You are it for a while and
then you give it away. It's like
ripping out a part of your body
and handing it to somebody else.
But in a way, it is not. And you
only see that after the fact. So
for everybody who's listening or
watching and feeling the same
way, my personal experience
shows me that it is a stage that
just like all stages of
everything you overcome
eventually, but it is a very
emotionally taxing stage. Did
you ever get to a point where
you were like, I'm gonna revert
this. I'm going to cancel and
scrub the whole thing.
Rox: Yeah, three minutes before
I signed the paper. The guy
acquiring it, he was like, oh,
dude, film yourself. Like when
you sign the paper, like you'll
be so happy
Arvid Kahl: Just crying
Rox: I signed it. And I didn't
say a single I only felt bad.
And that's the thing this whole
time, I've only felt bad. And,
you know, for a long time, it
was kind of easy to understand
why, especially when I had no
money and I hadn't gotten paid.
And it was like, yeah, I haven't
gotten a single dopamine hit.
And it's like, yeah, for the
first time in my life, my bank
account has a six digit number
in it. Yeah, doesn't start with
a crazy digit, but it's a six
digit. But all it feels like, it
feels more like some relief from
the pain I was feeling as
opposed to like a victory, you
know and that's the thing, like
it doesn't feel like a win. And
I don't think it'll ever feel
like a win. Like, it feels most
like an escape. And I think I
had two months worth of
graduation goggles on it, you
know, because it also like, only
started blowing up right as I
went to sell it, you know. So
for the longest time, the
decision to sell is based on it
not blowing up and everything
and then go back and forth. I
could read you. I wrote this
whole thing that I didn't post
because I wanted to like, you
know, work on it more. But I
wrote this, like deeply sad, you
know, plan for the Twitter
thread of like, why I sold
Thumbnail Test. And I'll tell
you the first six words in why I
sold Thumbnail Test, it says how
I feel awful, heartbroken,
destroyed. Those are the first
six words in the post that I
wrote. Yeah, hugely. At some
point, it says am I an idiot? I
think so. Yeah
Arvid Kahl: Honestly, I get it
because that's also the thing
with being an indie hacker or a
founder that doesn't have like a
massive team. I mean, you had
opti that's the developer,
right? And you have your
partner, she also gets the solo
entrepreneurial life. It's hard
because it's all on you. Like
the choices are all on you, too.
That's the thing, right? You
have to make all these choices
about things that you just have
no idea about, what's the future
gonna look like? What's YouTube
going to do? Like are they going
to eat it? Or they're going to
buy it? Probably not, who knows.
But then you have to deal with
all these things as well. Man, I
think that's what I mean with
looking at it in retrospect, a
couple months from now. It feels
while you're in the trenches, it
feels incredibly stressful. And
it is stressful because it's
literally creating physical
stress that is also my
experience, but somebody has to
make these choices and stand
behind them. And you don't
really have much of guidance
that you can take anywhere.
People look at your MRR and tell
you you should keep doing it.
That is really not advice that
makes any sense at all, right?
Because there's so much more to
a business than just the numbers
and where they're going. There's
your physical and mental well
being that has the potential of
something happening. You know,
Feedback Panda, what happened to
the business like six months
after we sold it? It just
flatlines because China
introduced regulation that
forbade people from teaching
English online in China, that if
they were not in China
physically, so all those people
that we sold our business to or
we sold our subscription to our
SaaS to who were employed by a
Chinese company, who sourced
English speaking teachers from
all over the world, they lost
their job. And with losing their
job, they lost the need for our
product. Nobody could have known
this. We sold at a point where I
thought like, oh, man, this is
growing again, 5 to 10% month
over month. We could keep doing
this and running for another
year. And then we would have
like twice the amount of money
and you know, all these
thoughts, you probably are
having them right now at this
point. But we sold, we were
pretty heartbroken as well
because again, it's even in our
case, it was literally me and my
girlfriend building something
and giving it away. Right? That
the whole baby analogy is very
viscerally felt at that point.
Like we built this over, you
know, 15 months. It's a bit long
for virtual pregnancy. But you
know, it was something that we
built together and nobody else
was part of this. It was our
thing. We gave it away. We got
money for it, which is weird.
And then we saw it crumble at
some later point. And we were
like, wow, that was a good
choice. Right? Because you never
know what's going to happen.
Rox: Yeah, and that's like, I
keep telling myself that you
know that like
Arvid Kahl: No, I'm telling you
too
Rox: Yeah, and like it's sort of
this weird emptiness of like
you're just putting everything
on the next thing like you're
putting everything into the
future. And you know, I had like
a quote in here from God, I
don't even know. Don't be afraid
to give up the good to go for
the great and that was like
really a lot of the rationale
behind this. Yeah, and a lot of
people say like, if you do it
once like if you've done it once
you can do it again. Which I
want to believe but emotionally
have no way to do so because it
doesn't feel like I did anything
to blow up that. It feels like
it just blew up
Arvid Kahl: Oh, that's funny
that because that's like some
part of you knows exactly that
you're completely wrong with
this, right? This is all you're
doing.
Rox: That guy made a video.
Arvid Kahl: Without the tool the
video would not have been made,
right? It's like without, I
watched you getting the shoutout
by Ali Abdaal, about the tool as
well and getting some traction
from that, like there is so much
of a rat tail of decisions and
things that you have to do
before those things happen. And
these are all the things that
you did. And these are all the
choices that you made, like
without you and your capacity
and your action, none of this
would have happened. So don't
sell yourself short on that
part. I get it like giving up
this thing feels like you have
this Tabula Rasa moment where
you're standing in front of
nothing. And now you have to do
it all over again. I remember
this moment in 2019, after we
sold, like I was like, you know
what am I going to do now. So I
kinda went to wordpress.com and
started a blog. That's where it
started for me. I just started
writing because I didn't know.
I'm not gonna build another
SaaS. I was just burned out from
SaaS. I was burned out from
coding. I'm not gonna code
again. And here I am right now
building two SaaS at the same
time. But you know, that's a
different story. Like it comes
back to you when it needs to.
And it's hard to be able to wait
for that moment because that's
also a thing. I don't know how
you experienced this right now.
But like, in building the
business, you spent 24/7
building that business. And then
you have this acquisition period
where you spent like, what is it
like 48/7, you know, you spent
two days worth of time every
single day, both in running the
business and making it
acquirable. And then you hit
this wall of the exit, you give
it away and then you have
nothing to do. How are you
dealing with that?
Rox: Well. I mean, it helps to
like be jumping right into the
next thing. But again, there's
like not paperwork. So it's
like, I'm jumping into the next
thing. But the foundation is
shaky right now. Yeah, like it's
very tough, you work with a big
creator, like I don't want to,
it's just that attention thing,
you know. Like, when things are
nascent, less time is spent.
When things are like less
visible, less flashy, less time
is spent, you know and there's a
lot of why I kept like flying
out the craters in the UK, like
I flew out to London a few times
because I very cognizant of this
like, you know, busy people have
very have a lot of difficulty
with object permanence, you
know. If you're not in front of
their face, you kind of don't
exist. And so you gotta just
keep finding a way to be right
there, you know and so there'll
be in the US soon, so I'm gonna
fly over there. And I'm just
gonna, you know, everyday I can
get in front of them is a
valuable day. But it's very
close. And I think speed running
to my next win is like the only
thing I can emotionally do,
which is even become tough
because again, like a few of
those things that like weren't
super clear in the paperwork on
like, the acquisition or
something like, how much I'm
allowed to talk to my existing
customers, like reach back out
and things where it was like,
originally, I thought we were
going to do one thing, but now
it looks like I might be able to
do all those things. And
technically XY and Z like, which
maybe affects my future
businesses, which really sucks.
So again, it's like it's a lot
of blows, you know, it's a lot
of hits. But you know, again,
it's my decision. Like, I chose
to do this, you know. I signed
the paperwork. I'm not like, woe
is me, I made a bunch of money,
you know. But, yeah, it
absolutely feels terrible across
the board. Like, I feel no
victories. And I think the only
way I will start to feel any
sort of victory is by just
building the next thing and
building it very quickly. And so
like, I have a couple, like one
or two YouTube tools that I have
in mind, where I'm like, okay,
cool, I have the audience now.
It should be much easier for me
to get a product out into the
world like this. And you know,
start selling it to that
community and I can make
something higher price. And you
know, even if it's like a month
or two from now, I'm sitting on
three or four KMRR, it's like,
cool, something's there.
Something's growing, something's
happening. And I'm not losing a
bunch of money on it. Like,
because in this moment, I am
without. In this moment, I am
empty. And it is a deep, deep
darkness that comes from this.
And all I can think about is
what I left behind. And all I
can think about is what I've
lost because currently, all I've
gained is a number. And that
number hasn't magically changed
my life. And I don't feel
particularly comfortable going
and spending a bunch of it
because it's all I have.
Arvid Kahl: Oh, man, 100% exact
same experience, maybe a
different number, but same
experience. I remember that,
like we looked at the bank
account and we're like, so do we
have to buy champagne now for
some reason? Because we didn't
want to and then we bought like
the cheap stuff because we're
gonna keep that number. And it's
like, yeah, the purpose, the
lack of purpose that you
describe, I know the void. I
know the feeling of the void.
And I know that the fear of what
next. I think, I mean, if your
character is I need to jump into
the next thing to find that
meaning again, that's what you
got to do. And I'm obviously I'm
not a therapist and I can't
really help you with this. Well,
although I wish I would. But
even just in hearing you talk
about it, it feels like you need
to make, you need to do, you
need to build, you need to find
people's feedback. And what I've
seen you do in the past is you
just do it in public in front of
people. So you can feel the
resonance. You can feel the
community, gathering steam
around topics, projects,
products, whatever it is and I
think your 16,000 followers on
Twitter or X as the cool kids
call it now. I think that is a
sizable audience that you should
just keep tapping into for these
things. They're there, people
are. And that's the thing,
people don't judge you for
selling your business. Like
everybody who follows you
probably wants to sell a
business like you just did.
Like, you will not be judged for
this and you will also not be
judged for being just honest
with people and telling them,
hey, I don't know what to do.
That's fine. Like most of us go
through life in the state of I
don't know what to do. Right? So
this being a setback, I get it.
It feels like it. It's not, but
it definitely feels like it. So
just keep doing this, man. Just
keep building the things that
you're interested in and are
legally allowed to build, I
guess at this point. And do it
in front of the people who
already care a lot about you, me
included. I love watching you do
these things. And I've loved
watching you code. So if you
pick up the stream at any point
building whatever, I'll be
there, right? Is that in the
future for you? Are you gonna
get back to streaming at some
point?
Rox: Probably not, I might get
back into content. I think
streaming made a lot of sense
when I was programming. But
streaming is also kind of this
giant build in public. So if I'm
especially going into a phase
where I don't get to build in
public as much with as many
things, probably a lot less.
And, you know, I gotta be
careful because I have a
tendency to talk, you know. I'm
like, Tom Holland with Spider
Man, you know. I gotta be real
careful not to say this or that.
And I don't ever know what I can
or what I can't and try to be
good at that now, which sucks.
Again, it sucks. So much does my
least favorite thing in the
world. But, you know, if I go
stream, I'm gonna want to do
that. But what I might do is
like, you know, my old streaming
buddies, we've been chatted
about, like, maybe getting back
together for some like events or
doing like skits and stuff. And
so you know, there might be fun,
funny things coming out from me,
but probably less of the actual
coding actual, like long stream
anything. But you know, I think
about streaming like most people
talk about World of Warcraft,
you know. You never really quit,
you just take longer breaks.
Arvid Kahl: Oh man, you're
hitting the nail on the head
here. Like I occasionally log in
every week to do some elevar get
some stuff going. But yeah, it
is the thing that you just
cannot shake, right? Like you
can't shake like the act of it
because it's just enjoyable and
I enjoyed watching you.
Honestly, I enjoy you wherever
you are, right? On the podcasts
that you go to, your Twitter
stuff, anything you do, your
work is just a spectacular thing
to watch. So, I will keep
following you. I will keep
supporting and motivating you
even through this valley of
darkness that you're in. It's
there, it's real. And you're
also there in real and you're
gonna get through it. I know and
I'm going to help you as much as
I can. I'm gonna watch you go
through and come out, shining
armor on the other side. If
people want to get to follow you
as well and join you on your
journey towards the next thing,
where do you want them to go?
Rox: Twitter is my number one
@RoxCodes. If you want to do me
a huge favor, Google the word
Rox, Google Rox and then scroll
until you see my Twitter and
then click my Twitter. I'm
really trying to get that SEO so
that I want to be the first
thing or like the second thing
when you Google Rox. One of
them's a charity, the charity
could be number one. I'll still
be number 2 in every country. So
please google Rox and then by
Twitter RoxCodes. Yeah, I mean,
genuinely, that's it. Like I'm
on Twitter all the time. I tweet
pretty much every day unless I'm
actively in a period of being
acquired and negotiating stuff
where I'm not allowed to frickin
talk about anything, man. So I
gotta go dark, but yeah, yeah.
And if you got cool stuff, reach
out. My website is rox.codes. So
you know, there's an email out
there. If you ever want to pitch
me on anything cool. And yeah,
you got any cool YouTube tools,
ideas, let me know.
Arvid Kahl: I really appreciate
you sharing all of this with me
and going to dark places going
to light places, going
everywhere all over the map with
me today. I really appreciate
it. And again, you get this. You
get through this and you're
gonna come out a very, very cool
trendsetter in the software
entrepreneur/creator world that
is even just starting to blossom
out there. It's really cool.
Thank you so much for sharing
everything today.
Rox: I'm so man, thank you.
Great chatting, as always.
Arvid Kahl: Of course,
appreciate it.
And that's it for today. I will
now briefly thank my sponsor
acquire.com. Imagine this,
you're a founder who's built a
really solid SaaS product, you
acquired all those customers,
and everything is generating
really consistent monthly
recurring revenue. That's the
dream of every SaaS founder,
right? The problem is, you're
not growing for whatever reason,
maybe it's lack of skill or lack
of focus or play in lack of
interest, you don't know. You
just feel stuck in your business
with your business. What should
you do? Well, the story that I
would like to hear is that you
buckled down, you reignited the
fire and you started working on
the business, not just in the
business and all those things
you did, like audience building
and marketing and sales and
outreach. They really helped you
to go down this road, six months
down the road, making all that
money. You tripled your revenue
and you have this hyper
successful business. That is the
dream. The reality,
unfortunately, is not as simple
as this. And the situation that
you might find yourself in is
looking different for every
single founder who's facing this
crossroad. This problem is
common, but it looks different
every time. But what doesn't
look different every time is a
story that here just ends up
being one of inaction and
stagnation. Because the business
becomes less and less valuable
over time and then eventually
completely worthless if you
don't do anything. So if you
find yourself here, already at
this point or you think your
story is likely headed down a
similar road, I would consider a
third option. And that is
selling your business on
acquire.com. Because you
capitalizing on the value of
your time today is a pretty
smart move. It's certainly
better than not doing anything.
And acquire.com is free to list.
They've helped hundreds of
founders already, just go check
it out at try.acquire.com/arvid,
it's me and see for yourself if
this is the right option for
you, your business at this time.
You might just want to wait a
bit and see if it works out half
a year from now or a year from
now. Just check it out. It's
always good to be in the know.
Thank you for listening to the
Bootstrapped Founder today. I
really appreciate that. You can
find me on Twitter @arvidkahl.
And you'll find my books and my
Twitter course there too. If you
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this will help the show. I
really appreciate it. Thank you
so much for listening. Have a
wonderful day and bye bye.