The Bootstrapped Founder

Arvid: 00:00

Today I'm talking to Yong Soo Chung. He's the host of the First Class Founders podcast. He is a pet influencer, runs a logistics company, an e commerce business, all kinds of things. He is a serial entrepreneur. I talked to Yong Soo about how to juggle these things, when to hire people, whom to hire, where to hire, and how to deal with giving up your business into the hands of somebody else.

Arvid: 00:25

This episode is sponsored by acquire.com, more on that later. Now here's Yong Soo. Welcome to the show. I would really like to know one particular thing, what is a personal holding company?

Arvid: 00:37

Because I've seen you talk about this, and it's in your Twitter bio and all over the place, really. And I've never seen that particular phrase used. And you seem to have made it a thing. So what is a personal holding company?

Yong-Soo Chung: 00:49

Yeah. So, you know, this this is a this concept is a is one that's really taken off recently. And, you know, what's funny, Arvid, is, you know, I feel like I've been doing it for the past 8 years, and I didn't even know what it was. Right? And so, really what it in its core essence is is like you're turning your hobbies that you have into businesses.

Yong-Soo Chung: 01:13

And because we live in a time when technology is advanced, there's AI now and, like, literally, you can run multiple projects at the same time. What you can do now is, you know, instead of just focusing on one thing for 10 years, you know, typical VC style startup where you 100 hour weeks, one thing, you know, hopefully you win, probably you won't. And then you get really stressed, and then you probably don't make anything. And then you're just like, what did I do that for? Right?

Yong-Soo Chung: 01:41

Instead of doing that, you you essentially you, you just work on your passions and then you work on another passion and then you have this thing where all of a sudden you have a bunch of projects that you're working on that you're all passionate about because they're all based on your interests. Right? And so, so that's kind of, turning hobbies into businesses, turning cost centers, personal cost centers into businesses. And then having you as the, you know, founder slash creator, you know, as the distribution mechanism where your personal brand is actually, you know, what's kind of the the glue between all these projects where you could be like, hey. I love French bulldogs.

Yong-Soo Chung: 02:24

I have a French bulldog shop. Hey, I love pockin' eyes. I have a pockin' knife shop. Like, it all kind of ties together because of who you are and what your audience knows you buy. And so that's really in a nutshell what a personal holding company is.

Arvid: 02:37

Mhmm. Yeah. Wow. That that sounds like it sounds like like a lot of fun, obviously, because all these little things that you already enjoy, you know, get to build something out of that. We we should maybe talk about this whole, I've I've heard this a couple times where people said don't turn your passions into your job.

Arvid: 02:52

I I this is a a very reductive way of of thinking about this obviously because job is something else than a business, and a passion is something else than a hobby. But how do you deal with the fact that this might turn something that you innately enjoy into something that you might go to in the morning, and you're like, I don't wanna spend another day doing this. Like, how how can you prevent that in in the the grand scheme of the personal holding company?

Yong-Soo Chung: 03:16

You know, this is a great question, and and really if you dig down into it, for me, it never feels like work. So when I'm doing something if you do things right, it no nothing you do in your day to day life should feel like work, which I know sounds crazy. But if you really think if you really enjoy something and and you're in flow for 3, 4, 5 hours a day, you get out of flow and you're like, wow. Did I just spend 5 hours doing this thing? And, like, that's how it should feel.

Yong-Soo Chung: 03:48

Right? And so, obviously, there are things where, you know, you gotta do your finances, accounting, like, things that you don't necessarily enjoy, like, that comes with the territory of running a business. But, generally, if you really enjoy what you do, then it shouldn't feel like work and you should feel like you're, quote, unquote, retired this entire time. And that's really what you're trying to achieve, attain. It's kinda like, you reach Nirvana when you hit this level where work is play and play is work.

Yong-Soo Chung: 04:20

And, at at times, I mean, that you know, you're evolving as a person. So, like, my hobbies today may not be the same hobbies I have 2 years, 3 years, 5 years down the line, and that's okay. Because then at that point, you can decide to, hey. I'm done with this project or whatever and start something new, you know, or put into put an operator in place there and then you work on something else. So it's like it's not a fixed thing where you're you're sticking with one thing and then you get bored of it and you're like, oh, man.

Yong-Soo Chung: 04:48

Like, what do I do with this thing now? Like, no. It's flexible. Like, you know, it's your life and you can do whatever you want. So that's kind of, to answer that question.

Yong-Soo Chung: 04:56

Yeah.

Arvid: 04:56

That is awesome. Yeah. And and since you've done this for, like, 8 years, I I guess, plus, right, as a probably a a version of this that happened before, have you encountered those moments where you where it's just like, okay. I'm done with this Operator, find somebody else. Deal with this.

Arvid: 05:10

Like, how have you dealt with those moments in your own life?

Yong-Soo Chung: 05:13

Yeah. You know, every 3, 4 years, I have one of these moments. And, you know so 2015 is when I launched my first business. It was it's a pocket knife business, selling flashlights, bottle openers. It's called Urban EDC.

Yong-Soo Chung: 05:27

And, essentially, you know, I was really into that back then. And then, you know, 3, 4 years later, I put an operator into place and, you know, it's it's running. Obviously, it doesn't come with its challenges. For example, my operator that I had in place for, what, 3, 4 years left last year, and so I had to train up a new operator. And so, you know, it's not like a set it and forget it.

Yong-Soo Chung: 05:50

Like, that is not what I'm saying by any means. But what I guess what I am saying is, you know, your interests evolve. And so, you know, 3, 4 years later, we, you know, we brought him a French bulldog named Humphrey. He has a huge personality. He's he's so he's so cute and, like, you know, he it's just got a lot of followers on Instagram.

Yong-Soo Chung: 06:11

And, my wife and I were running the account and, you know, ultimately we, started a an e an e commerce business selling, French bulldog accessories, toys, treats, harnesses, and, like, the French bulldog community is so passionate about French bulldogs that, you know, we were able to make a business out of it. And the best thing is we can also travel and, like, we get a lot of sponsorship deals from 5 star hotels, and they'll pay us to come up there. We stay there for free, eat amazing food, and all that stuff. And so, like, that's, like, part of my life too. Like, I have one side, which is, like, you know, I love this gear stuff.

Yong-Soo Chung: 06:46

And then French bulldogs, I love spending time with my dogs. And so they're all, like, part of this business now. And then yeah. And then, we actually started a, a 3PL business also. So 3PL, is third party logistics.

Yong-Soo Chung: 07:00

So we ship out products for other ecommerce brands. And this happened very naturally because, you know, we we had inventory we're shipping out, and we had a lot of issues with our fulfillment centers. So, we started this business, and, yeah. That's so that was our 3rd venture. And then finally, and the most recent one is my podcast and newsletter, which is First Class Founders.

Arvid: 07:22

You would stop, do you? It's awesome.

Yong-Soo Chung: 07:25

It's a lot, for sure.

Arvid: 07:27

Oh, man. First Class Founders is awesome, and I I do wanna talk a lot about this, like, being a podcaster myself and having been on that wonderful podcast and probably one of the best produced episodes that I was ever in. So still, like and and again, thank you for that. It's it's spectacular. But I I I wanna talk about this later.

Arvid: 07:44

What I wanna get back to is the fact that you just mentioned 4 very, very distinct and different things. And you're one person, right? You only have 24 hours in a day. Most of us have already trouble assigning their one thing that they do sign at some point during their day because they're just busy with, you know, family and jobs, like full time employment, and they wanna get out of it or whatever it may be. What I what I would like to know is how you segment your time because being a pet fluencer requires a very, very different mindset, probably a much more adorable mindset than an e commerce owner that sells knives or somebody who regulates logistics.

Arvid: 08:23

How do you jump from these kinda, I I would almost say, internal personas that you need to be for each of these businesses?

Yong-Soo Chung: 08:32

So I I think at my core, I am just who I am, and I don't I don't wanna, you know, I wanna come out come off as being authentic, so I don't wanna change that because, like I said, in a personal hold call, you are the distribution channel.

Arvid: 08:44

Right.

Yong-Soo Chung: 08:45

The glue that has all these connected together. Right? So I don't wanna compromise that. At the same time, obviously, like, you know and you probably know too. When when you're when you're on a podcast, you kinda have to bring some energy.

Yong-Soo Chung: 09:03

Right? So, like

Arvid: 09:03

Yeah. For sure.

Yong-Soo Chung: 09:04

To be honest, like, you know, when I'm just hanging out with with my wife, like, you know, I'll talk a little just more like this, like when I'm I'm pretty chill like this. But then when I'm on a podcast yeah. Oh, yeah. That's like exactly. Like this is this is how I talk.

Yong-Soo Chung: 09:18

Right? But then when I'm on a podcast, like talking to you, I'm like more energetic. I'm like more enthusiastic. And so I wouldn't say that's I'm not being, you know, I'm not being authentic. It's just more like you gotta just have a little bit of, know the audience, know what goes behind it, and just be prepared for that.

Arvid: 09:36

Okay. Yeah. So it's a facet. It's not a persona. It's just like a you you turn off one knob.

Arvid: 09:40

Like, you're on on your mixing station, you just, like, crank up the volume a little bit. Yeah. That make that makes perfect sense. I think that's how we generally are as people. Right?

Arvid: 09:48

With some people, particularly with family, we have this kind of learned behavior, a learned volume, a learned kinda intensity that we know works with them. And then with other people, with our friends, we may be more open or even more chill. And it's it's it feels it's it's very similar for me too. Like, when I am in public, like, what right now. Right?

Arvid: 10:06

I have more energy and than than when I'm just sitting in front of my computer, right, when I'm coding. I'm I'm very stoic when it comes to that, but I I wouldn't yell at my screen or at myself during that because I I need to, you know, have the brainwaves aligned. But in a in a public setting, very different story. So still myself, like you said, it's it's the uncompromised self just in a in a from a different side, maybe a different angle. That makes sense.

Arvid: 10:29

And that also is the only explanation that that fits here really. Right? If you are the person running all these things, you cannot be different to each of these. You can you you have to be, like, the core of it. And in a way, I guess, as an entrepreneur, these are all businesses in the end.

Arvid: 10:46

Right? They all are hopefully profitable endeavors. So there is a common ground there. That is really cool. It it's it's just, it's bizarre to me that you you can be a pet influencer and a logistics operator at the same time.

Arvid: 11:02

You know, as as much as it's obvious that you do this, I find this, these these are very different things. How do you approach building teams around this? Is is your team also the same, or do you have distinct teams for distinct businesses?

Yong-Soo Chung: 11:17

So great great point here. So, my wife is the one that runs the main, Petfluencer account. And so, obviously, we talk about things and, you know, when we whenever I we have brand collaborations, I help out in the background. But, like, she's the voice of Humphrey and and all that. And so she's technically the operator behind, spotted by Humphrey, which is the ecommerce store for French know, you know, we sync up on a daily basis, but it's not like I'm in the warehouse doing the actual shipping.

Yong-Soo Chung: 11:53

I mean, I I think I would kind of, you know, try to do everything including shipping products out myself. I think I would go a little crazy if I did that, but, it's really about finding the best operators for the job, for the role, and really training them and working with them. And I think that the best thing to do when you're trying to work with operators is to really, you know, you come last in terms of, you know, you put their needs ahead and and and you really step aside and let them do their work. And of course they're gonna make mistakes. Like, that's kind of the point is, you know, they're gonna make mistakes and you you have to make let them make those mistakes because that's how they learn.

Yong-Soo Chung: 12:34

Right? It's like, teaching kids, you know, that they're they're gonna fall down, they're gonna, you know, break a leg and that's how they learn. It's not like you can, oh, don't do that because you're gonna you don't climb that tree because you're gonna break an arm. Like, I mean, they're gonna wanna climb that tree forever if you, like, prevent that from happening. So it's, like, it's one of those things where you just kinda have to let these operators do their thing, learn these as long as it's not, like, a company, like, ending mistake.

Arvid: 12:59

Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say because, you know, like, if you're bootstrapping your businesses and and that's what you've done. Right? Like, that's your money in there.

Arvid: 13:06

Like, how do you deal with the fact that that is a substantial amount of money that you own on the line for somebody else to deal with that may not have the same risk profile as you?

Yong-Soo Chung: 13:17

Yeah. I mean, you gotta trust them to a certain point. I and and a lot of times I don't think of it as my money. I think of it as just the business's money. And so that helps a little bit in terms of the mentality.

Yong-Soo Chung: 13:29

But, yeah, I mean, there is that risk and you're constantly evaluating the risk reward here with, like, you know, obviously for big things, they'll check-in with me. Hey. You know, I wanna buy this machinery. It's, like, whatever, 1,000 of dollars. Like, why do we need it?

Yong-Soo Chung: 13:42

I'll, you know, I'll question them, brainstorm with with the operator. But ultimately, we come to the right decision. And another thing is, like, you never wanna be a dictator type leader where you always want their buy in. So, you know, I'm never gonna say, hey. This is the way it should be done.

Yong-Soo Chung: 13:58

I will what I will say, however, is I will say, hey. So these are the scenarios. This is what's happening. What do you think we should do? And then we'll talk about it.

Yong-Soo Chung: 14:07

And ultimately, like, we'll come up to a decision and then they now they're bought in. They're like, okay. Yeah. You're yeah. This is it.

Yong-Soo Chung: 14:13

This is a decision that we've made. And that that approach is way better than trying to force the decision down down someone else's throat. Right?

Arvid: 14:21

Yeah. It's it's also good, okay, building respect with people and giving them the agency to do things on their own. Where did you find those wonderful people? Like, we all try to to hire the best possible people, but finding an operator that can do what you can do, even better. Right?

Arvid: 14:35

So that you are in the same level. How do you find those people?

Yong-Soo Chung: 14:38

Yeah. This is really challenging, and this honestly is is probably the hardest part about all this. So there's a couple of different methods. One is you can try to build them from from, organically from internal. So for example, you know, Urban EDC, one of the operators that, we had, he was a customer support agent, joined us, like, 5 years ago.

Yong-Soo Chung: 15:01

And he continued to work himself up, prove himself to the point where now he knew everything about the business, and now he was running the show. So that's an internal promotion. For the logistics business, we had an external, hire and and this is there's pros and cons to both because, the internal one is kind of like, you know, everyone on the team sees that this person is is doing really well and this rises above the ranks and they have a lot of respect for this person. So there's not a lot of, like I mean, I guess there could be, like, politics involved. But, generally it's less politics than bringing someone external because the external thing is is is very threatening to someone who's been at a company.

Yong-Soo Chung: 15:43

They've worked really hard. They're hoping to level up. But then this external person comes in and, they're threatening. And so, like, I've had to deal with a lot of that drama and politics, myself. And, ultimately, the the logistics operator is fantastic, and, I had to build around him.

Yong-Soo Chung: 16:03

So, actually, everyone when I brought him in, like, everyone that was on the team, you know, there are a few that stuck around, but then ultimately, they all kind of, they fell off. And then he's the core now, and, like, we're really building around him. And so it's, you know, it's not easy to find great operators but it's really more of a an art than a science when it comes to that. I think I would say though that building a strong personal brand really does help to get, you know, it's a numbers game sometimes where you get a lot of people and then you have to kind of figure out, alright, who who do I think will be the best for this thing? And then you try it out.

Yong-Soo Chung: 16:39

Sometimes it doesn't work and then you move on and, like, you know, it's it's, it's not easy, but it it it can be done.

Arvid: 16:46

So how many employees into a business do you hire that operator? Because the the operator replaces you. Right? So it it kinda takes over the team. Did you have, like is is that something that you've that you've just felt for each business and then made that choice?

Arvid: 17:01

Or do you have, like, maybe even an order of hiring? I was I was at MicroConf last year in in April, and and Rob Walling was sharing this wonderful talk about, the order of your first hires for software as a service businesses. Right? Depending on if the cofounders are technical or marketing or whatever. And it tends to be, like, first, you hire another developer and then a customer service agent and then goes on like this.

Arvid: 17:22

It's just on average, that's how software as a service businesses do it. Your businesses are more in the ecommerce space. So how did you go about that? What order did you hire in, and when did you hire your replacement?

Yong-Soo Chung: 17:35

You know, when I'm thinking about this now, I don't think there is a perfect, like, a playbook of, like, oh, at this point, you hire your operator. I think it's more of a feeling of, like, this person is really talented. I'm gonna nurture this person and really let them grow, and then let's see how how they go or how they do. So, really, for me, I'm I'm always evaluating talent all the time. And that's what employee you know, they they want that because they want to make sure that there's a path forward for them.

Yong-Soo Chung: 18:06

Right? And so I'm constantly evaluating them. I'm like, hey. This person's really good. I'm gonna continue to challenge them.

Yong-Soo Chung: 18:12

Let's see if they can get to that next level. Like, I always do that. And so, like, ultimately, you know, you have someone that's rising up through the ranks and, I mean, you'll you'll know when the time is right because they'll be like, hey. Like, what else can I do here? Because I'm I'm I'm doing all this and it's like, alright.

Yong-Soo Chung: 18:28

You're right. Like, this is you know, you've kind of taken over here and, like, it just comes naturally. I wouldn't say it's, like, employee number 3 and employee 4, whatever. It just you'll just know because as you develop employees, they will you know, it'll just kinda play out naturally.

Arvid: 18:43

Mhmm. Yeah. That's awesome. It's also nice to see you caring so much about these employees. Right?

Arvid: 18:50

To to already have an eye out for somebody who might be that person in the future. That is really cool. Like, from their perspective, if I were to work for you as your, you know, as a software developer or something, I would wonder what more could I do to get to that point. That is really nice to to offer this kind of trajectory. That's cool.

Arvid: 19:09

I really, really like that. And that that kinda leads me to to a topic that I often discuss on this show, which is acquisition. Like, would you ever sell any of these businesses?

Yong-Soo Chung: 19:19

I mean, I could. I think that's that I would. I mean, it it depends on I mean, obviously, it depends on a lot of factors. But I I you know, as I mentioned earlier, you know, hobbies and interests change. Life circumstances change.

Yong-Soo Chung: 19:38

And so that's definitely you know, I I'm not married to every single project that I'm that I'm working on. And so I'm not afraid of selling a business or even shutting it down if it doesn't work out. Like, life is a long game and, like, you have plenty of opportunities. And I truly believe that it's really the lessons that you learn that you can take and carry forward and, like, you can build something way faster because you compress that learning time now. And so you don't, you know, it doesn't mean if you close down a project, if you close down your company, it doesn't mean that you've failed.

Yong-Soo Chung: 20:12

You just you're delaying it. Right? And so, you know yeah. I mean, I I I would I'm not against any of those options. And so it's just a matter of timing and and, you know, there's a lot of variables, right, in in play there.

Arvid: 20:28

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And and that's, it's it's it's more really just about the general feeling because if you love your employees and you love the thing you do, a lot of people would rather keep doing it. Right? That's still a lot of acquisitions are monetarily driven.

Arvid: 20:40

They are done for just if the financials because people wanna kinda elevate their life to this financial security point of view. If that's not something that you need anymore or if it's just too interesting for you to keep running it, I can see why, you know, you just wouldn't wanna sell it. But, yeah, I I get that. Were you at any point, or did you over your last the decade, the last decade, did you shut down anything, or did you give anything up?

Yong-Soo Chung: 21:05

Let me think about that. Before I had UrbanEDC, I had a few different smaller things like, you know, I was developing an iPhone app. This is back in 2,000 9, 2010. And I ultimately decided to shut that down because it wasn't gaining any traction. Development costs were high.

Yong-Soo Chung: 21:23

I was outsourcing everything. And, you know, it was it was a first first time entrepreneur, and I was just learning things. Decided to shut that down because it wasn't really going anywhere, but I I always had this knack for trying new things. And, you know, I'm not I'm not afraid of, of shutting things down because, I mean, I just feel like it's it's it's just one of those things where you will learn from the experience and then you will come back stronger than ever. And it's, you know, it's not a failure.

Yong-Soo Chung: 21:56

It's just more of, a delayed gratification. Well, delayed success, I guess, is a better way to put it. I mean, ultimately, hopefully. Right? I mean, all I mean, honestly, like, if you learn something from each project you build, at some point, chances are the odds are in your favor that you will succeed with one of these.

Yong-Soo Chung: 22:15

Right? So, like yeah. So I think it's more about, like, taking as many swings as you can, learn from them, but then don't get so, down on yourself if you miss, like, 9 of them and you put then you hit 1. Right? So

Arvid: 22:30

Well, that's that's just, you know, the the old rule of either you win or you learn. I kinda I I always think about my projects like that. Like, there's no loss in trying to do something really interesting that furthers my understanding of stuff. And I I would assume that over your career, starting something new probably has become a little bit easier every time. Right?

Yong-Soo Chung: 22:53

It's definitely easier. And what's funny, Arvid, is that I I now see patterns in business where I can recognize things and be like, okay. Even though it's different, like, it might be a different market, different vertical, like SaaS versus ecommerce, like but I see it's the same pattern of building and it's the same pattern of, like, customer retention. Like, all that is the same. Well, fundamental business is the same.

Yong-Soo Chung: 23:19

Right? And so once you learn the basics then I feel like and honestly, it's part of the reason why I like to do so many different types of things is, like, I find them interesting. Like podcast is very different from ecommerce, but, like, it's in a way, it's also the same because there's obviously listeners and, you know, get listeners and sponsors. Like, whatever it is. Like, that's all fundamentally the same.

Yong-Soo Chung: 23:43

And so I do I do think that, you know, each thing that you each project you learn from, you come back stronger the next time. You keep going. Ultimately, you'll probably succeed in one of these.

Arvid: 23:55

Yes. So what what would be, like, a parallel that you brought with you into the podcast endeavor? What what would be one of these these patterns that you've recognized there that now makes it easier for you to do this?

Yong-Soo Chung: 24:07

I think the podcasting medium is is quite interesting. I I actually think it's still early in the podcasting world. And, I mean, the landscape is changing right now because you I think YouTube is is really forcing people to have a certain type of show, which is interesting because, you know, I mean, you've heard My Pocket is a very, like, produced high production show, but it's very difficult to translate that over into YouTube. Whereas, more of the conversational types on YouTube, very easy to make clips, distribute them out, and then bring them into your podcast. And so I've grappled with this idea.

Yong-Soo Chung: 24:50

Like, should I just make it more into a simpler conversational style versus should I just make it audio only audio first show and then have, you know, whatever, YouTube stuff underneath it? I've I've grappled with these things. But ultimately, you know, it's like a distribution channel. Right? So podcasting, I think, is still early.

Yong-Soo Chung: 25:11

You know, newsletters, I think, is more mature. For example, like, you know, now when you sign up for a newsletter, you get those pop ups. Like, do you wanna sign up for these 3 other newsletters? Like, for me, that's a dis that's a distribution discovery mechanism. And so newsletters I feel like is moving towards that interesting, interesting inflection point of it's becoming more of a discovery platform whereas in in my like before it was social media was more discovery platform and then you go into the newsletter and newsletter was not it was just, you know, you can't get discovered.

Yong-Soo Chung: 25:44

But I think podcasting, there's still no discovery tool unless you do a direct shout out. Hey. Listen to my podcast, you know, on a show. And so, I mean, in terms of what I'm learning growing the podcast, you know, it it's just a lot more emphasis and importance on distribution and how to get this and how to, you know, get found, how to get other people to talk about your earned media. Obviously, the product has to be really good.

Yong-Soo Chung: 26:17

The show has to be good. So I've really tried to nail that down also with my high production show. What I'm what I'm figuring out though is that, you know, obviously, product without a great distribution strategy is is no one's gonna really know about it. And so it's a really interesting dichotomy here because, yeah, it's it's it's I'm learning a lot with this podcast. Yeah.

Arvid: 26:40

Yeah. Oh, I I bet. Yeah. Me too. I can get it.

Arvid: 26:42

On my end, it's the exact same. And I find, like, being a consumer of podcasts too, I don't know how many you you listen to, but I'm constantly walking the dog. I mean, you you have dogs. Like, you walk them. You gotta listen to something.

Arvid: 26:53

Right? Yeah. We we listen to shows that we really enjoy. And I have just observed this in my own consumption. The shows that I really like are audio first.

Arvid: 27:01

That's something that I've noticed. Like, I I listen to a Star Trek podcast where people just talk about shows from the nineties, like, for hours, and I love that because that's what I grew up on. But they don't they could show them. They could do video, but I I think they consider themselves too ugly for video or whatever, so they just don't do it. And that creates a better show.

Arvid: 27:20

That creates better audio quality because people don't really have to look into a camera. They don't have to, you know, have a script or whatever. Their focus is purely on the quality of the conversation, which for me, that the magic of podcast is that you are in the brain of the person that is listening to you. Right? A video is in front of you, probably speaker somewhere off to the side.

Arvid: 27:38

A podcast is happening inside your head, which is incredible access to somebody's brain. Right? So audio first feels like something that I personally also like more than audio second, and community first is something that I've noticed too in podcasts. Both the Star Trek show and the Harry Potter show that I listen to, let's just put all the nerd stuff out here, both of them have been going for many, many years and have accumulated massive communities of people around them. Like, I literally am part of Discord communities where I talk to the other people that listen to the same podcast as I do.

Arvid: 28:10

Right? The podcast is a conduit. It's not just a piece of content. It's a connector. And that's that's what I see with with you over as as you're growing as well.

Arvid: 28:19

Like, you talk about it in Twitter, people talk about it, people suggest new guests, people tell you how much they learned from this. This is the actual power of the podcast, not just the audio format, but the community, the exploration of it that comes with with the format.

Yong-Soo Chung: 28:35

I love that. I love everything you just said. I think that's, that's spot on. And I I I do believe that, I mean, the the video influence right now is really powerful, and I and I think that a lot of the artistic part of audio only is actually being washed away because everyone wants to grow, grow, grow, and they're going to video because or the conversational style. It's easier to just, you know, these shorts and reels and all that stuff.

Yong-Soo Chung: 29:02

But, you know, I'm actually curious about how do they take this audio first experience and make a video out of it. Like, I I like, that's actually the question that I'm always asking is make our amazing audio products and then video will come second and let's see what happens. But, yeah. That's so I'm grappling with this issue, like, all the time, by the way. Like yeah.

Arvid: 29:26

You know what that reminds me of, is the, the Ricky Gervais show. Have you ever watched this or listened to it? Because I I think it it was an audio first format where he and Steve Merchant and I think Carl Pilkington were just 3 dudes sitting, and they and both Ricky and star Steven were making fun of Carl. That was the idea of the show. And Ricky Gervais is a very funny guy.

Arvid: 29:46

Steve Merchant is a hilariously funny guy, and Carl Pylkunken is just oblivious to stuff. It is very funny to watch. But to watch because it was an audio first format. They were just sitting, doing radio effectively, and then they animated over the show. They animated the people as they were talking in in a studio.

Arvid: 30:06

It was just an animated radio conversation in front of microphones with little cut scenes to where they are in the street telling a story or something. That's remind is is what this reminds me of. Like, audio first and then video as kind of an accessory, but not the core of the format.

Yong-Soo Chung: 30:22

There's another show on Netflix called, Midnight Gospel. And, this one also does that where it's a con it's a spirit it's more of a spiritual conversations about, like, Buddhism and spirituality. And

Arvid: 30:36

it it gets pretty weird. Right?

Yong-Soo Chung: 30:38

Oh, you've seen it. Yeah. It gets really weird. It gets really weird and, but it's it's these the these cut up, you know, podcast clips, I guess, audio clips, and they they made them into, you know, a TV series or whatever on Netflix. And it's really well done.

Yong-Soo Chung: 30:55

It gets really weird, but it's, I think that's the point of it.

Arvid: 31:00

Yeah. I I think it it is because it allows you to just explore things that you couldn't with video. Right? That's, in my Star Trek podcast let's let's just go into this. Like, they were talking about, I think I I'm in the backlog somewhere at 2018.

Arvid: 31:13

It's I'm listening to shows that are, like, 5 years old at this point because just because I like them so much. And they were talking about what was then announced to be a new Star Trek show, and it was supposed to be an animated show. And they would just because both both of the both of the guys in there are videographers. They they work in in video and audio as well. They were saying, oh, this is awesome because if you have an animated budget, you could do whatever you want.

Arvid: 31:37

Right? If you if you have to make a real life movie, you need to build, like, the sets and you need to get the actors and whatever. But an animated show, you can show whatever you would like. Like, it doesn't matter what you draw, it's gonna cost the same amount of money. Right?

Arvid: 31:50

And even if it's like CGI, that that all is manageable in terms to having, like, real people do real stuff. So I always feel that is actually more interesting to have a a non real life thing where I don't need to watch the people. I can watch something that is put on top of it that explores things that a real life show could never ever explore. So maybe we're onto something here. Maybe audio first plus video on top is just a way more deep way of exploring topics.

Arvid: 32:18

If mid midnight, did that show is is any suggestion. Right? Because it

Yong-Soo Chung: 32:22

I agree. I mean, I think that this is the underserved, you know, I I actually had this I wanna make 1st class founders audio audio first and then video show, but it's but, you know, it's very costly to do. That's the only that's the downside to it. But it, I I do think that that's an interesting, you know, format of a show for a video format too, you know, because it's audio first then video. And so that's definitely, like I'm looking for more things like that, but I haven't really found any other shows like that.

Yong-Soo Chung: 32:58

Yeah.

Arvid: 32:59

I I I guess you start by doing a really, really good audio show. Right.

Yong-Soo Chung: 33:03

Right.

Arvid: 33:03

I think that that already is setting the bar fairly high for anybody competing with you in that space because most people don't. Right? Most people make a good show, but a really good show that is expensive and it's hard to do. It's hard to stick with. With.

Arvid: 33:15

Maybe let's talk about this a little bit. Like, because I I remember when you when you had me on the show, you were talking about the the the the editor that you hired for that, and it's just how expensive it was. How much did you pay for that? And and do you still do this on every single episode? Like, how expensive is it if you wanna divulge numbers, obviously, if you can.

Arvid: 33:34

It's, perfectly fine if you want, but, you know, I would like to to learn it. How how much do you have to pay to make a show that sounds great?

Yong-Soo Chung: 33:43

Yeah. So right now, each episode is roughly probably between $800 to maybe a1000, maybe a little little higher than that depending on the level of editing. And so, you know, it's it's a lot of work. For example, you know, right after this interview, my producer, he has literally went through, and and cut out sound bites from an interview that I had with someone, a guest that I had previously. And he's written me a script of narration that I have to do on top of this, just like I did with your episode, Arvit.

Yong-Soo Chung: 34:20

Yep. And, I have to record that afterwards. But, essentially, like, that's all him. I mean, obviously, I'm gonna I read through the script, make sure that it sounds like me and it you know, I'm not saying anything that I'm that I wouldn't normally say. But he and I have worked together now.

Yong-Soo Chung: 34:36

He knows what I say and, you know, and so it's all there. And so I literally go in there and I record this thing for 30 minutes. I upload it, and he takes it. And then he'll do all his work on it, and then he'll come back to me and say, actually, you know, you pronounce this word in a in a way where I can't hear you very well. Can can you redo this, please?

Yong-Soo Chung: 34:55

And so he gives me pickups. So I have, like, pickups to do that'll take me, like, 5, 10 minutes. And then I upload that file, and then he works his magic, puts in sound effects, sound design, whatever he wants, edits it altogether, and then we're good. So it's, like, very minimal for me. I'm almost like an actor in his show where he tells me what to do and then I just do it.

Yong-Soo Chung: 35:15

Oh,

Arvid: 35:16

that's wonderful. And and it just shows you how how much trust you have for the people that you work with. Like, again, this kinda reminds me so strongly of your operators because, effectively, that's kinda what he is for you Right. In the podcasting world. Right?

Arvid: 35:28

That is so fun. And it is also nice because it allows you to just be really present in the moment with a person. And you know that if there is ever a need to do anything further, you will have the time and the capacity to do it afterwards. Right? That's the the problem with conversational shows just as this one.

Arvid: 35:46

Like, if you don't get to the points that you wanna make, you can't. Right? Because it's supposed to be a conversation. Like, I just, like, act like you saying something or have some AI act like you and say the thing that I want you to say. That's not how it works.

Arvid: 35:58

So you have to be be kind of force those points if you wanna make them. But with a production like this, this is really cool. I I really admire this, and I admire the fact that you spend money on that. Lots of people wouldn't. This is really cool.

Yong-Soo Chung: 36:11

I mean, I think that it's it's kind of, you know, I'm I'm kinda doubling down on the podcast and the newsletter. And now I'm I'm I wanna make sure it's a good product. Right? It's something that, stands out from from from the crowd. And to be honest, like, I feel like your style interviewing like, you're an amazing interviewer.

Yong-Soo Chung: 36:29

Like, you get into these topics really well. And, like, to be honest, like, I'm not as I'm not at that level. Like, I'm still learning to be a better interviewer. And so to be honest, like, my producer helps me mask a lot of my, like, mess ups and all that. And so it's nice to have someone that's, oh, you know, we'll cut that part out.

Yong-Soo Chung: 36:47

Don't worry. And then we'll yeah.

Arvid: 36:49

So It's it's it's definitely nice to to have an editor. Shout out to Nick who's editing this, right now probably and probably cutting this out. But, yeah, that's, that's really how that works. I agree with you. It's it's nice to have people that kinda have your back and something that is so front and center you.

Arvid: 37:03

Right? Because this is kind of a personal brand effort and so is the newsletter where you write. Right? It's it's it's you as the person, the personal brand. I I wanna wanna ask you about this kind of connection between the podcast and the newsletter because I myself run a newsletter too and the podcast, and they're kinda synergistic.

Arvid: 37:19

I try to drive people from one to the other. How do you approach this? Like, how what is your flywheel looking like when it comes to these content, media?

Yong-Soo Chung: 37:28

So this is a fantastic question and something that I also think about all the time which is, first of all, how do I get how do I get listeners? Because ultimately my podcast is my what I call grail content. And what I mean by that is that's where I want the final destination for our for my audience to go. That's where it is now. I mean it may change in the future.

Yong-Soo Chung: 37:50

Maybe I start at YouTube and it's like the YouTube is the growth content. But right now it's the podcast. And so how do I get people to listen to the podcast but then ultimately, like, for someone that's discovering my work for the first time, for me to ask them, hey. Can you sit down and listen to 30 minutes of an episode? Like, that is a big ask and that is not something that people will will do.

Yong-Soo Chung: 38:13

And so the the the middle way the middle ground here, almost like, middleware for for this is, is kind of like the newsletter. The newsletter functions as, like, this, like, middle, you know, operational thing where it gets people to listen to my podcast. And so, I treat so I have my social platforms where I'm writing stuff on on x, you know, social platforms. And then I have newsletter, so I get the people to sign up to the newsletter. And then from the newsletter, I promote the podcast episode.

Yong-Soo Chung: 38:47

And so that's kind of the funnel that I'm using right now. What's interesting is that, you know, newsletters are very vague in terms of, like, you know, what is a newsletter? It's just literally just an email you send out. Right?

Arvid: 38:59

That's right. Yes. It's marketing. It's

Yong-Soo Chung: 39:01

email marketing.

Arvid: 39:01

Email marketing. Yeah. Really.

Yong-Soo Chung: 39:03

So some people when they think of a newsletter these days, they think of it as, like, a long form of text where you're you're reading everything there. And so but my but my newsletter is it's just a short snippet. It's got, you know, points and then you say, hey. Listen to the episode. Because I want people to listen to the episode.

Yong-Soo Chung: 39:21

And then I also have a, a visual summary of the episode which they can click on and download. But then it's it's really like do I wanna I know that, you know, we I think we've talked about this before where you have, like, your podcast, like, almost, like, typed up on a newsletter, and that is the newsletter. And so you're you're optimizing for the experience of a newsletter reader where they can read through the podcast episode versus having to click and then listen or watch. Right? So that's I mean, that's this is a constant, struggle that I have which is what do I want like, what do I do I wanna have a a better experience or I don't know.

Yong-Soo Chung: 40:04

It's like a

Arvid: 40:05

Yep. Better for whom too. Right? Like, I I got so many replies when I tried what you were doing with my existing audience of newsletter readers. Right?

Arvid: 40:13

For for the longest time, I had 2,000, 3,000 words of an essay every single Friday, and then I just cut it to a couple paragraphs of the essay. And then if you wanna read the whole thing, click here. Or if you wanna listen to this as a newsletter or as a as a podcast, click here. And people were yelling at me like, man, I really liked it, but it was the thing, and I could read it in my email, and I have to click once. Right?

Arvid: 40:33

People, you know, people will always complain about things changing. So picking one thing and sticking with it feels like the right way to do it, but I I I kinda split it up. Like, for the interview shows that I do, like this one, I'm I'm sending out a a really, really short email just introducing the guest and saying why they are awesome. Click here, video link, and that's it. That's I I sent that in on Wednesdays.

Arvid: 40:53

And my full length newsletter still goes out every Friday where I just talk about whatever I wanna talk about. I kinda just tried the best of both worlds approach here, which is taxing, I guess, because now they have 2 emails to read and one maybe for 1 group in the audience and one for the other. But, hey, if it makes everybody happy, I'm happy. You know? How do we approach this?

Arvid: 41:13

Do you have, like, a a kind of audience that you want, or are you happy with serving everybody in their specific way?

Yong-Soo Chung: 41:20

One thing that I think about a lot is is training my newsletter readers. And so I want them to click, because that helps with click through rates and then possibly sponsorships and all that. So I have a lot of links in my newsletter where they can click opportunities. And so, you know, if I'm right if I'm talking about an episode, I will say, oh, like, I did this episode with Arvid.

Arvid: 41:46

Yeah. Interesting.

Yong-Soo Chung: 41:47

I'll highlight that this episode is clickable. But then I'll I'll highlight it again later, and being like, oh, we talked about this and then I'll highlight that and then that'll be clickable. So I try to get as many clicks as I can. I want the newsletter to be clickable so that it drives, higher click throughs, and that's really attractive for sponsors. And so, behavioral wise, that that is what I'm trying to optimize for.

Yong-Soo Chung: 42:14

And what I found is that if it's a newsletter that's all, it's like a text, it's it's great but you it's harder to figure out engagement from that because it's like, okay. Someone read it, but then someone could open it, close it, and it's the same metric which is unopened, right? And so I'm always trying to measure something about the the reader and I feel like having the clicks It it being clickable a lot is something that I'm trying to do, convey and behavior wise. Right? Yep.

Arvid: 42:43

That that makes sense to me. That's that that is unfortunately, I guess, the only metric that advertisers care about or sponsors because that's where they can build a certain expectation. I've been doing more of this as well. Like, just put more links in for the sake of offering people something to, you know, click on. Mostly also because it's an interesting metric, and I get to see engagement.

Arvid: 43:03

But also, if I have a newsletter, it would be nice for the newsletter to expose them to new things that they haven't visited yet, right, that they haven't seen yet. So having something to click on and explore and go into this, you know, the rabbit hole of exploring a topic, that's something I really enjoy, and I want my my audience to enjoy that too. You you you mentioned that personal brand is at the core of all of this, and I kinda wanna close with this because I feel that we we explore it to the outer rims, all the different projects, and all the the different stages and the the different ways of doing this to different people that are helping you with that. But it all kind of boils down to the the central personal brand, and that is you. What is more important to you?

Arvid: 43:44

Building up a personal brand from which these projects spring, or is it building these projects that require a personal brand?

Yong-Soo Chung: 43:53

I love this question. So I I mean, the the the, I guess, the the the the the cheating answer here is that you need both. Right? Sure. The shortcut answer here.

Arvid: 44:08

The buzzer

Yong-Soo Chung: 44:09

is yes. Yeah. The the answer is always yes to everything. I think the way I I look at this is, you you know, I I I do think there's something to be said about, an operator who's just really good at at building a company and but don't want don't care to be scrutinized by the public. And they're just building something quietly, but it's killing it because they know all the growth channels to hit, and they're getting customers.

Yong-Soo Chung: 44:42

They don't need to be that big. And, you know, it's it's it's a path that a lot of entrepreneurs and founders take, which is they're not public, they're not online, but they're crushing it. I know I know a lot of founders like this. Right? So, I mean, I can't fault them if they can do that.

Yong-Soo Chung: 45:01

But I don't know. At the same time, I do feel like it's almost like with this new age social media, you know, being a part of everyone's lives. It it it I do think there's a missed opportunity. If you are okay with being public online, which a a lot of people have opinions on that, then I do think that it it will help you attract talent. It'll help you, find investors if you want them.

Yong-Soo Chung: 45:26

It it'll help you find customers. So there is a lot of things that could help. But then at the same time there's also negatives. So actually, you know, let me, I'll talk about this here. I feel like social media inherently brings out these negative factors for, like, for example, like like, you're building a personal brand and, like, you get so caught up in, like, follower account.

Yong-Soo Chung: 45:54

You get caught up in engagement, how many people responded to my latest post. Like, I should be responding back to them because it helps with the algorithm. Like, it, like, really messes with you sometimes because, like, you know, I I, it's almost like I'm doing actions that hey. This is gonna sound really weird, but when I'm doing something, I'm already thinking about the hook for for a post on x. So I'll be like, oh, I'm I'm going through this thing right now.

Yong-Soo Chung: 46:24

This is gonna be an amazing story. I can't wait to write about it. I I already have the hook in my head. Like, thank you.

Arvid: 46:30

Doing it for the gram. Right? Isn't that what they call it?

Yong-Soo Chung: 46:33

Yeah. So it's it's it almost, like, harmful because inherently social media is very self centered and self driven because you have to yeah. And so it's, you know, I'm grappling with this idea of, like, okay, like, I wasn't online. I wasn't a public person 2 years ago. I was and I was coming from a very self, like, selfless.

Yong-Soo Chung: 46:54

I didn't care about any of this. But then, you know, my wife the other day was, like, questioning me, like, hey. Like, why do you like, I was, like, I got the perfect tagline for this thing that's happening. Like, she's like, why why why does that matter? Like, why can't you just, like, think from a per you know, like, just decide based on how you feel and what you think is the best instead of thinking about the audience and how they would react to your story.

Yong-Soo Chung: 47:20

I was like, oh my god. You're right. Like, I'm changing. Like I'm changing in a way maybe I don't wanna change. And so that's a recent thing that I discovered about myself where I'm like, alright.

Yong-Soo Chung: 47:30

Maybe I should tone down the social media thing because I'm too much in my head about that. Right?

Arvid: 47:36

Thank you for sharing this. It it resonates with me quite a bit. Like, like, particularly now as I'm building a new software business and I have every opportunity to share every little thing, I often catch myself already, like you said, coming up with a tweet about something that I'm in the middle of and should really pay most of my attention to. You know? Like, it is it it it derails you in a in a way that might be useful because it does give you more attention and it does give puts more eyes on the business that you're building.

Arvid: 48:07

In my case, that is more potential customers. Right? That that is interesting. Or even more founders giving me their insight if they've built something similar. But it it kinda, yeah, it defiles the the authentic thing itself in a way.

Arvid: 48:22

Right? It destroys the authenticity there. And I got I guess that's kinda what we started with when when I asked you about personas and fragments of your your own self. Like, if you wanna be your authentic self, well, then you should protect that from the to being drawn too much into a public space. It's a very interesting observation.

Arvid: 48:41

So what I hear you say is this is not for everybody. Am I getting this right?

Yong-Soo Chung: 48:47

It's it's not for everybody, and I I I really thought that, I mean, I didn't know that I would slowly evolve into that kind of mentality, but I did because I'm, like, looking for content ideas all the time. And I'm, like, I see something and I'm like, oh, that's a great content. I'm gonna I need to write it down so I can have a good hook and, like, all this. But, like, I don't know. Like, sometimes I I feel like it's I'm living in a world where I'm always looking for great content ideas or great hooks.

Yong-Soo Chung: 49:20

And I I don't know if that's a healthy way of doing things because, like, sometimes I'm literally, like, deciding what to do. But I have 2 decisions and I decide because I'm like, wait. This is gonna make for a better story. I'm I'm gonna get this is gonna go this is gonna go viral. I'm gonna choose this path instead

Arvid: 49:36

of this path. Oh, dear boy. Oh, no. Right?

Yong-Soo Chung: 49:38

And so that's why I think it's a dangerous game because Yes. You you wanna pick the path that from an unbiased, like, for yourself. Like, pick the path that feels right and good for you instead of picking the path that you think will cause controversy or whatever, like, go viral, whatever it is. Like because I feel like a lot of our behavior now on online is determined by what others think of you. Yeah.

Arvid: 50:07

And that's the truth. That. Right? What what the algorithm thinks, others might think of you. Right?

Arvid: 50:12

There's an abstraction in between that as well, which is even worse. Yeah. I I think, like, just judging from your most recent tweets and your behavior on on x, on Twitter, and all that, I think you're on a pretty good path. Like, I always really enjoy your work, both the the work that that is kind of more the the static artifacts, the podcast that you put out there, and your social media presence. I don't see you as somebody who's just throwing hooks after hooks at people.

Arvid: 50:36

I think even and and this is just I I think the nature of the game of being online and being on a social media platform, you have to make it interesting. Everybody wants to be and make something interesting. But you don't cheat. Like, you you literally say something meaningful and interesting. You just put a nice little, you know, bonnet on top that people get are attracted to.

Arvid: 50:56

I I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but there is a risk. There's a risk of overdoing it. And I'm glad that you're reflecting on this because I don't think everybody does. Many people don't. Right?

Arvid: 51:05

It's a lot of stuff.

Yong-Soo Chung: 51:06

I think people get carried away with it, and they you see you see people doing crazy stunts trying to get, like, attention. Right? And I think that's not the way to live.

Arvid: 51:15

Yep. I don't I don't think so either. And I'm I'm glad you're you're not chasing virality this much. So if somebody would like to see you not go viral, where would they go?

Yong-Soo Chung: 51:26

If you wanna see my really boring content, 1st Class Founders is the podcast. The 1st class founders.com. There's a newsletter there, also. And I'm pretty active on x slash Twitter at Yongsu Chung. So you can find me there as well.

Arvid: 51:45

That is a a good order of things. I I your news, your newsletter and your podcast are things that I consume, and I really, really enjoy them. And the the podcast is spectacular. I also every single week, I I get, like, a a little notification email from Potchaser or something that you you released a new episode, and I'm all excited. I guess it's always really, really cool to see your content and the guests you have on.

Arvid: 52:09

You you have wonderful people telling wonderful stories, sharing very interesting observations and really helpful things. So let me do some some advertising for your podcast here. It's really, really cool. Yang Soo, thank you so much for being on the show. That was a spectacular conversation.

Arvid: 52:23

Thanks for sharing everything that you have shared, and thanks for just sharing it as you do it online. I really appreciate that.

Yong-Soo Chung: 52:30

Arvid, this has been an awesome conversation. Honestly, I feel like I learned something new things about myself during this conversation.

Arvid: 52:38

Awesome.

Yong-Soo Chung: 52:38

And I feel like that's, you know, that's always a plus. So

Arvid: 52:42

Well, worth it.

Yong-Soo Chung: 52:43

Yes. Exactly.

Arvid: 52:44

Thank you so much.

Yong-Soo Chung: 52:46

Thanks, Arvid.

Arvid: 52:47

And that's it for today. I will now briefly thank my sponsor, acquire.com. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a really solid SaaS product, you acquired all those customers, and everything is generating really consistent monthly recurring revenue. That's the dream of every SaaS founder. Right?

Arvid: 53:06

Problem is, you're not growing. For whatever reason. Maybe it's lack of skill or lack of focus or applying lack of interest. You don't know. You just feel stuck in your business with your business.

Arvid: 53:17

What should you do? Well, the story that I would like to hear is that you buckled down, you reignited the fire, and you started working on the business, not just in the business. And all those things you did, like audience building and marketing and sales and outreach, they really helped you to go down this road, 6 months down the road, making all that money. You tripled your revenue and you have this hyper successful business. That is the dream.

Arvid: 53:43

The reality, unfortunately, is not as simple as this. And the situation that

Arvid: 53:47

you might find yourself in is looking different for every single founder who's facing this crossroad. This problem is common, but it looks different every time. But what doesn't look different every time is the story that here just ends up being one of inaction and stagnation. Because the business becomes less and less valuable over time and then eventually completely worthless if you don't do anything. So if you find yourself here, already at this point, or you think your story is likely headed down a similar road, I would consider a third option, and that is selling a business on inquire.com.

Arvid: 54:15

Because you capitalizing on the value of your time today is a pretty smart move. It's certainly better than not doing anything. And acquire.com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of founders already. Just go check it out at try.

Arvid: 54:27

Acquire.com/arbit. It's me. And see for yourself if this is the right option for you, your business at this time. You might just wanna wait a bit and see if it works out half a year from now or a year from now, just check it out. It's always good to be in the know.

Arvid: 54:42

Thank you for listening to the Bootstrap founder today. That. You can find me on Twitter at Avidkar, araveri, k a h l, and you'll find my books and my Twitter course tattoo. If you wanna support me and the show, please subscribe to my YouTube channel, get the podcast in your podcast player of choice, whatever that might be. Do let me know, it would be interesting to see.

Arvid: 55:00

And leave a rating and a review by going to ratethispodcast.com/founder. It really makes a big difference if you show up there because then this podcast shows up in other people's feeds, and that's, I think, where we all would like it to be just helping other people learn and see and understand new things. Any of this will help the show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening.

Arvid: 55:22

Have a wonderful day and bye bye.