298: Sharath Kuruganty — Letting Go Isn't Quitting
Download MP3Today, I'm talking to Sharath Kurughanti. He's the host of the undefeated underdogs podcast. He's a software entrepreneur, and he's striking a really interesting balance between personal priorities and his business life. We talk about his SaaS efforts, his podcast, what it means to run a podcast as a solopreneur, and many many more interesting things. This episode is sponsored by acquire.com.
Arvid:More on that later. Now here is Sharath. Sharath, it is so nice to talk to you. How are you doing, my friend?
Sharath:I'm doing, I would say not good as well as not bad. I'm kind of in the balance. You know? A lot of things going on these days, back in back to back, which are kind of unexpected. And I kind of think that the universe is kind of testing my patience, you know.
Sharath:Wow. How how patient can you be or how much you believe in yourself? You see what I'm saying? So I think I'm in that testing phase. So usually, generally, my answer is I'm doing fantastic regardless.
Sharath:But I think these days, I'm kind of, like, going through lot of lows, you know, compared to a lot of highs generally. But I think, yeah, overall, I'm just grateful. I'm breathing. I have a roof to live. I have, you know, close to air, and I'm talking to you.
Sharath:So so I'm blessed.
Arvid:Well, I I really appreciate you just being honest from the get go. Like, that that is, such a build in public founder thing that you're currently doing. That's just like, no. It's not perfect, and we could talk about it. And I I appreciate that.
Arvid:I'm looking forward to diving into this because I know that feeling, and I occasionally have it myself. And I I try to, you know, overcome it by just sharing it and giving other people the opportunity to just see themselves and their own peril and their challenges reflected in it. So what's what's currently occupying your mind? You you are, for me, somebody who shares a lot of stuff you you're building in public. You're sharing your personal life from parts of your personal life as they intersect with your professional life.
Arvid:And I always see you as somebody who's trying to strike a balance in many different ways. So what's what's keeping you off balance nowadays?
Sharath:So I think this can be really really petty for people who are listening, who has, like, a bigger problem, like, you know, going through, like, health problem or something like that. So I'm not, you know, comparing anything. I'm just going through, like, a lot of, I think I would say tough for me, particularly in my case because, you know, a, I'm kind currently jobless. So for folks who are listening, I'm an open agent. You know, if you're listening and if you're hiring, please talk to me.
Sharath:We can talk a lot about that. But, yeah. So that is something that's kind of like I know it's if if I look back, I've been in these situations many times. Meaning, I've fallen many times. I've also kind of risen many times.
Sharath:Right? So it's not new to me that I'm in this position. It's just new in this situation, which is a, I we just bought a new house. 2, my wife's pregnant. We're expecting a baby boy in the next, like, 4 or 5 weeks.
Sharath:So it's just like, you know, is it the right timing is what my mind is right now. So I'm kind of in that phase where I kind of want to deny the fact that, hey. Why is it happening to me, you know, at this time? But at the same time, there is another side, which is like, hey, man. Yeah.
Sharath:You know? Life's great. Just, you know, be grateful for everything you have. So I'm watching this show on Netflix. I forgot the show name.
Sharath:It's about, it's about, like, you know, evolution. Going back to, like, 1000000 of years ago, you know, Morgan Freeman narrates it. I think life,
Arvid:I don't know what show it is. Life on Earth?
Sharath:Life on Earth. I yeah. That's that's the thing. And in that particular show, he reminds us that once in a while, a civilization, you know, species comes to life and they fade away. They come to life and fade away.
Sharath:So that is something that I'm keeping in mind when I go through these times, like, we are going to fade away. It's it's it's just a matter of, you know, years. You know? Nobody's gonna remember us. Nobody's gonna remember, like, you know, our you know, the work we do, everything is going to fade away eventually.
Sharath:So that keeps me humble. But, anyway, long, long, long you know, to just wrap up the answer. Yeah. It's it's kind of like off balance because, you know, I wanna build some things. I wanna do my podcast at peace, but this thing is, like, disturbing.
Sharath:Hey. You're kind of you know, you're not doing anything. So I'm kind of have to practice more self flow, I would say. So I'm to be very honest, I'm in that situation, juggling between that and, like, perspective that in perspective. So so it's kind of like a struggle ongoing struggle, and I think we talked about in our in my podcast as well.
Sharath:That is something that I'm accepting. Okay. It's a struggle. You know? It is what it is.
Sharath:Let's actually kind of, you know, see the half class full. I'm more of, like, a half class full guy, generally. But sometimes, you know, you stumble. Right? And it's okay to stumble and keep telling myself, okay.
Sharath:It's a phase. It'll go back. You know, you once you pass it, you look back. It feels like, you know, you made it through. But living through is, like, kind of very tough.
Sharath:Again, there are many, many, many, many, many ridiculously hard problems people face. Compared to that, this is pretty much nothing. So I'm I'm just grateful, but the thought is kind of, like, you know, putting me off balance. And as you know, you might have noticed as well, I'm not that active on Twitter, or social because, you know, I don't want to fake or, you know, kind of provide knowledge when I'm not feeling knowledgeable. Right?
Sharath:I'm not going through these experiences. I can't, like, promote or, or teach. Again, in your words, you're a teacher. Generally, I I see myself as well learn and teach. That's like the cycle.
Sharath:Right? We all live as, you know, as founders, entrepreneurs. So I'm not teaching anything because I'm not learning anything at this moment. I'm just going through that, you know, that weird phase. But anyway
Arvid:It's funny. It's funny that you say that because in talking about this right now, you are teaching. It's just that you're you're not like intentionally transmitting wisdom that you qualify as wisdom. But I think a lot of you know, like the teachers that I remember from school, that's kind of my my framework when I when I think about like the the the the epitome of teaching, right, which is not. Obviously, there there are there's other kinds of teaching, but the ones that I resonated with as a kid were real people that I could relate to.
Arvid:They were not some kind of authority figure that tried to keep everything perfect and and, you know, their reputation and their status, and then they they would give you the divine wisdom that they had. Those people I didn't like, but the people who were just people like me with hobbies, with problems, you know, those I could relate to, build a relationship with, and through their experience, learn something from my own. And I think particularly among entrepreneurs, your situation right now is so incredibly common among all of us most of the time. Right? It might not be the exact same thing, and it might not be the same kind of problem.
Arvid:I really appreciate that you say that this might not be a big problem for others who have bigger problems, but it is a problem for you. I I recall I had champagne problems that when when we sold our business and we had, like, all that money, all of a sudden new problems came up that felt just as critical. Of of course, we knew they weren't, like, compared to somebody else, but even compared to ourselves a couple years ago after, like, you know, like, before the sale, money was a problem, afterwards, it was not, but new problems come up. And I think it's important to recognize that your problems are uniquely yours, and it's it's kind of it's unfair to yourself to disqualify them as problems. Right?
Arvid:That that's all I'm gonna say about this. Like, your situation now is uniquely yours to solve, and everybody's situation is kind of similar in that way, just unique to them. So all all all that considered, I I find it very, very interesting to to hear you speak about what was it? Give me a second. I I'm trying to to formulate a thought here.
Arvid:We're gonna edit this out, but, I I I find it very interesting that you talk about this kind of internalized need to do something. That's something that I kinda heard just now. Right? When you're when you're unemployed, you're trying to look for a job. Of course, there's fine finances involved in there, but it also is often, I guess, a cultural thing that you internalize.
Arvid:I must work. I must produce. I I would like to know how this is for you because from for me personally, I come from, like, a east German kinda cultural
Sharath:Oh, man. I can I can talk about ours if you have time? Because, you know, going back to my childhood, there were, we kind of are programmed by the society. A lot of us when I I come from India, same culture, similar culture, I would say, at least. If you are not working or if you so, basically, they tag everything that you do to respect.
Sharath:So everybody wants to be respectable. Right? And I think the need to be respectable is something, like, I I consider as a disease in the first place. It's a it's a virus. You know, there is no end to it.
Sharath:Like like you said, you you go through life, you you grow, and you face new problems. In the same way, I think this is one of the problem. Like, there is no end to it. Like, you people can people crave for respect all the time, and that actually is going to hurt them. So where I come from?
Sharath:Oh my god. I have to, like, rewire a lot of things when I came to the US. US. You know, self love. You basically have to be, in your own thoughts, do your own thing, choose your own lane, don't compare.
Sharath:I think those are all completely opposite where we where I came from. It's always, like, you know, judgmental always, all the time, you know, be it relatives, be it friends, be it general society. So they they make you, you know, put a stamp on you saying that, hey. If you're not doing x y z, you're basically bound to it. Not just from a work standpoint, like, personally, you can't marry, you know, you can't take divorce.
Sharath:You know? It's it's like a biggest thing, you know, you're basically stamped. You're you're very uncertain in life. They don't consider people's feelings in that way. Right?
Sharath:So I can yeah. It's it's it's worse. And the thing I relearned or rewired when I came here is to see people becoming more abundant in expressing themselves authentically, and people actually respect that more than what you do or what you produce. So I there I I kind of, like, found a way to be authentic. So my biggest superpower is being authentic.
Sharath:And if I if I people can take anything from me except that. They can take basically everything. Like and I can start from 0 by being very authentic, talking to people authentically, being expressing authentically. And there are also downsides as you know. Right?
Sharath:Like, it's not always like rose back when you be expressive authentic. They're like you kind of, you know, encourage people to, like, you know, throw shit at you and all that. But it's fine. You know, it's fine playing in your own lane because you want to play in your own lane. It's not because other people want to play in their lane.
Sharath:So I think that's where I kind of, you know, learn to rewire myself. Okay. Let's be fucking authentic. That's it. Don't worry about anything else.
Arvid:And you you do it well. Right? I I see you building in public. No no matter if you post a lot or not, like your personal situation, that is that is it has to come from an honest place. Right?
Arvid:And if you don't feel like it, then you shouldn't. I think it's a pretty valid approach to to sharing what you do and what you don't do. And I I think it's it's perfectly fine. But, I I do wonder, has the consciously and intentionally building in public and sharing this kind of stuff made it easier for you to deprogram yourself from these expectations?
Sharath:Yes. Yes. So the first time I kind of, like, started expressing myself, I've had mixed signals, like, even from, you know, my wife. Hey. Why are you sharing certain things you're not supposed to share?
Sharath:Because we are not supposed to share. Right? So the if you ask people who come from, you know, eastern culture, we don't generally do things in public. We generally do things in private, especially within our family. And there is also, like, a notion that when you share, something bad will happen.
Sharath:Mhmm. I I would actually, like, slap that person who said that. Because when I shared everything, everything good happened to me. Like, over the years so that is fundamentally where I learned to be like, oh, wow. The benefits, the pros, the upside of building in public is ridiculously good.
Sharath:Whether so that's why I I actually kind of am leaning far from building. I'm doing everything in public. Like Being
Arvid:in public.
Sharath:Right? So, yeah, living in public. I would say I think, you know, the the the building in public is sometimes very, you know, congested to what you do professionally, and that's it. That's the end period. But try to actually be authentically sharing, expressing what you're going through internally in your mind.
Sharath:Try that, and people will find very interesting about someone expressing, and they get the courage to do the same thing. So I feel that is really important. So when someone like so people like Ryan who were it's not new. Billing in public is becoming like a trend now, but, generally, people are doing ages. Like, you know, they were like so it's all, like, there.
Sharath:I found courage when I saw certain people expressing either loss, either, like, you know, going to tremendous tremendous amount of time. That actually gave me, like, confidence. So you know what? I don't want to go to that extent. So one one thing I say to people when they ask me about, how do you build in public Baby steps, period.
Sharath:Don't share, like, I'm going through, you know, divorce. Share that I'm having a bad day. That's it. So start really, really small. Like, you're going through, like, you know, you're not getting customers.
Sharath:Start sharing, like, what are some things that you failed at getting customers. So I think if you take baby steps consistently over time, it becomes second nature. And the upside, that is a separate episode, I would say.
Arvid:Well, I I think, one of the the upsides that I personally felt myself and that I also see you benefiting from is, you you just said something or like a couple minutes ago around, like, if somebody were to take this all away from you, you you would start again, but you you wouldn't start from 0. Right? You you have something that your presence, people enjoying you being around them, and they're trusting you with your knowledge and with your honesty. That is stuff that no business catastrophe can take away from you because that's kind of your personal brand for the lack of a better term. Right?
Arvid:That's just you being projected into the world and people resonate with that. And that's the the massive upside. Right? No matter what happens to any of your projects, even like you lose your job, well, people still love you, maybe even more for the fact that you talk to them about it. Right?
Arvid:That is that is just this perpetuated, well meaning intent that people have in a relationship with you.
Sharath:Yeah. 100%. Oh my god. I think like you said, I think that's what I I think when we do things in public, generally, eastern culture, they say, hate is going to go. It's gonna grow.
Sharath:People are going, like, talk to you a lot talk about you a lot. It's quite opposite. Like, people love you, and not everybody's gonna love you. That's the that's the biggest star right there. That's the biggest disclaimer.
Sharath:If you do things in public and assume that everybody wants to love you, you're going to fail. People like you find you, and people like exactly your mindset and your wavelength are going to embrace you. They're going to love you. They're going to, like, you know, share support for you. So I think that is enough.
Sharath:You You don't have to have everything. So there is a lot of philosophy in building in public if you think about it. Right, Garvit? Like, enough, like, less is enough. And especially when you do things in public, you realize that more, more, more, you have, like, 100 customers.
Sharath:That's enough. You don't have to have a million, you know, people looking at you. So I would say doing things in public, do that with that mindset so that you will be at peace, or else you'll be constantly judging yourself. Am I doing this right or wrong? Am I doing I was there.
Sharath:Trust me. I was there. Like, when I share something in public, something is not working. Am I doing this right? Absolutely.
Sharath:You're doing this right, but just not resonating with the right people. That's the answer. So I would judge less when you do things in public and tinker. Like, build that craft. Make make that skill over time by expressing yourself in, you know, quite different ways.
Arvid:But you you just mentioned mindset. I think it's, one of the the core underlying foundations of doing anything really in public or not. Right? But, doing anything to a certain end, I would like to know how do you currently approach these opportunities? Maybe side projects or, you know, media projects like your podcast or things that work, things that don't work.
Arvid:What's your mindset right now that you apply to these things?
Sharath:It's all muscle building. That's it. It's all, like, you know, if I'm doing podcast, that means I'm building a muscle of asking great questions. I started terribly. If you listen to the first episode of mine, I was very nervous.
Sharath:I was, you know, stuttering a lot, kind of had a lot of hums, and I didn't steal the conversation. And I'm grateful Jack Butcher, you know, came onto the show as a first guest, which is amazing.
Arvid:Yeah. That's awesome.
Sharath:But I started, like, completely being an amateur side projects. The first date first product I did called Tools for Makers, it was just a directory of tools. In building that versus what I'm building right now is far more complex. So I think the way I approach these projects are about building that muscle in that particular skill. Like for building, it's building projects, maybe design.
Sharath:How can it be better in terms of executing that product, you know, with collaborating? So I'm learning again. I was a solomaker. Now I'm collaborating with people, you know, on these projects. So working as teams, how can I be make make better decisions?
Sharath:Right? Whether it is the idea is validating in the public or not, you know, picking those signals. So it's always, I think, building that muscle, and it depends on what what I do personally, like, you know, writing on Twitter, building that muscle of writing. I don't know. If I do it, like, probably in another 5 more years, I might be in a position where I can write, like, bigger articles.
Sharath:I don't know.
Arvid:Oh, yeah. Do do you have, like, long term goals with that kind of stuff? Like, which with each of these lanes?
Sharath:Absolutely. Absolutely. So what I do as a founder building products, I wanna build a start up eventually. You know, I wanna build a profitable whether it is VC backed or Bootstrap, doesn't matter. I want to, like, build something for myself and for others, and do it in the most right way possible, at least to me, in my own lane.
Sharath:When it comes to media, again, asking great questions. How can I hold a conversation? How can I so I I get shit scared when it comes to public speaking? So if you go see me 6, 7 years ago, I wouldn't even have the courage to talk to you even if you are not in person. So I've developed that okay.
Sharath:I'm extremely introvert, but I have to develop this skill. How can I do that? Just hopping on, you know, 1 on 1 calls with many people, Then, you know, doing hosting some events, then being part of, you know, some events as guests. Then so it's it's kind of like a transition process that I've I've begun, like, you know, 5, 6 years ago. I'm still in the path of pursuing that.
Sharath:So that's why media. How can I actually, like, you know, hold a conversation? Probably, eventually, I wanna do, like, something media oriented, have my own show bigger, being having, like, in person events. I don't know. So I think, same thing, community.
Sharath:That's one thing I've kind of realized that I can do this. So one thing I wanna make sure is that I'm definitely not Michael Jordan. 100%. Hell no. Not talented at all.
Sharath:Even I do believe that right now. Completely. One thing again, I'm not a champion, but I do I do have a championship mindset.
Arvid:Mhmm. Oh, that's interesting.
Sharath:Where I wouldn't let go of things easily. I would pursue them with intention and do it in a very, very, very micro way to reach the macro. Building startups, I never went to business school, never build businesses, never sold anything, but build that muscle over time. Launch simple side projects. Build that small little people of, you know, community network.
Sharath:Being an introvert, I would never imagine that I I you know, community builder, these all have bigger goals, but I don't know when they're going to happen. That's not my biggest worry. My biggest concern is how am I kind of optimizing it right now to reach there? So, yeah, everything is kind of, you know, counts, to to towards that mission of building that
Arvid:muscle. Oh, that's great. And and what a wonderful, just visual, that it's really not necessarily only about the things that you you are doing. They're all important, and they they all have their own little goals. But the fact that you keep doing them, that's what's the important part.
Arvid:I love this. It's kind of the, the the what is it? Like, the the process is more important than the results. Right? The the path is the goal, not the goal.
Arvid:Yeah. Yeah. That's that's really interesting. The the what I also see in you is that you just lean into being an amateur and you're perfectly fine with it. A lot of people have a lot of perfectionism when it comes to showing up for the first time.
Arvid:Right? They want their first SaaS to be perfect. They work on it for, like, a year. They want their first podcast episode to be perfect. They record, like, 10 different ones, and they all kinda suck.
Arvid:They kinda stop. Right? So are you just saying it it's fine to put out stuff that is not perfect, but as long as you put it out?
Sharath:So there is an interesting take, I would say. I think people might, like, you know, throw shit on me on Twitter for this. You have to be perfect to learn that perfection is not the right way. So I'm not saying that I woke up with this incredible mindset of, hey. Let's build small small things over time.
Sharath:No. So if if if I go back to, like, 2016, 2015, where I was, like, you know, do many other things. I used to be, like, very, very, very minicule about, like, let's do this in the right way and spend a lot of time tinkering, not shipping. So I learned the hard way by failing in taking the shot, hitting the rock bottom. So I would say people actually should try to be perfect, to realize how much perfection stops you to become, you know, actionable.
Sharath:So I learned that way. So then I'm like, okay. Now I've decided, like, I'm now going to be perfectionist. I tried that. I failed.
Sharath:It's not going to help me. I kind of started experiencing the other side, like, put things on, you know, without incomplete, for example. If you go back 2018, 2017, look at my tweets, you will find a lot of spelling mistakes, like, literally. Because the intent there is, like, do action. So even those small little things, I just, like, you know, tweet about some some of the thoughts I had.
Sharath:So many grammatical mistakes. Again, English is not my first language. I've learned it by practicing it. Right? And that's something I've become better over the time.
Sharath:Do things, you know, in a way that feels it it might feel imperfect for others, but it it will feel perfect for you because you know perfection is the not right is is basically, like, you know, not the way. So that's that's my heart take, I would say. Experience pursue perfection so that you realize it's not the right way. Then you will, like, kind of won't go back to that phase. So being amateur, 100 hell yes.
Sharath:I would say, you actually also think about if you think about it, you will be pressureless. You'll feel light. Nobody's going to watch you. There is no strings attached, and you can be, like, so authentic, so, you know, do things with fun. And I think that's the goal.
Sharath:Right? Like, getting into that perfection is kind of like, you know, if it is there, there.
Arvid:I think that's that's also the the cultural thing we just talked about. Right? This external pressure, this where everybody tells you, oh, if you do this, then everything will explode and people will abuse the knowledge that they now have of you whereas but that's just what you said most people aren't really watching I I always and and this can be great, like, because they don't see what you're doing. It can kinda suck because you want them to watch, but the the it's it's not really about them not paying attention. I think it's about the the fact that their attention is mostly inward focused on themselves.
Arvid:Like, there is no person that cares more about you than you. Like, nobody else care. Like, everybody cares about themselves the most. Right? So what you do is kind of you are a side character in most people's lives.
Arvid:That's that's
Arvid:really what it is. And that is perfectly fine. You don't have to be more than that. Right? And this this gives you a certain freedom to just be you have your own little story, your own narrative, and live your life the way you want it because everybody else is so concerned with their main character arc that you could just do whatever you want.
Arvid:I think that's very freeing. I like that. Let's let's look maybe look at the flip side of this for a second because you can stick with things for too long. Right? If you're if you're fine with being an amateur forever and you're not making progress, you could effectively waste time on a thing where other things could happen.
Arvid:How how do you deal with this? When do you let go of a thing? Do you have a framework for this or, like, a priority system?
Sharath:Yeah. So I think it comes a lot with practicing self awareness. So I I feel like, absolutely true. You have to make progress. That's the whole point of putting into reps.
Sharath:Again, take my podcast. Right? The first thing I did was I kind of looked back. So a lot of retrospect will help you realize, am I doing this the right way, or where is a slight improvement I can do? So always, I think my philosophy is always look for improvements.
Sharath:And if there is nothing to improve or you feel not feeling there's nothing there for me to, like, improve, that's where you stop. So for me, all of these projects, I had fun while it was there. Like, I was building it. It was fun. Kind of, like, you know, going after, like, certain features or, like, take podcasts going after certain guests.
Sharath:It's all fun. When I feel like it's not fun anymore, it's, like, becoming like a burden. It feels like an obligation. That's where you have to, like, stop. That that that self awareness, it should be part of your DNA if you want to become better.
Sharath:Without that, it's really hard. Like I said, you're basically cog in the wheel. You're going to, like, go in circles doing the same thing without any improvements. So look for improvement. I would always look for I think the framework I would I don't know if it is a framework or not.
Sharath:Look for improvement. Always go back. Do a retrospect of what you're doing. Be in 3rd people's shoe, like other people's shoe, and view it your own work in their eyes, and you will see, oh, man, this sucks. So take an example.
Sharath:Like, last year, I I I launched this thing called Blooby, and you were you know, thanks to you, we're a big big supporter of that. There was support. There were people saying that, hey. We'd love to do this. I build certain things, spend some time again, not full time, but at least, like, you know, here and there.
Sharath:And at some point, it felt like I have to do this.
Arvid:Yeah. It's kinda forcing yourself.
Sharath:Yeah. Forcing yourself. So I was like, okay. I was going back and forth in the retrospect. Okay.
Sharath:Is it the right way to, like, pursue this or no? So having that self awareness, you let go. So it's better to, like, let go. Don't give up. That's 2 those are 2 different things.
Sharath:People lot many people confuse about letting go versus giving up. I didn't give up. I'm giving up is not doing something again. Right? Yeah.
Sharath:That's true. Go is
Arvid:yeah. Making room for the next thing. Right?
Sharath:Exactly. Your your intentional the kind of opening up to another opportunity or another idea in in terms of being being a founder. Right?
Arvid:And that happened for you. Right? That's that that's exactly what happened after that. Can you tell me more about that?
Sharath:Yeah. So I I kind of, like, struggled a lot, and I was like, okay. This is not good. Because, a, I thought I would use it, and I'm not using it, the the solution, the problem I have. And that's where I generally I would ask people to start as well.
Sharath:Are you solving your own problem? Are you be being your own first customer or first user? If you are not, then even, like, you know, don't even pursue. So I realized that late again, it happens. And then I was like, okay.
Sharath:This this actually brought me back to ground again. Let's start something new. Then I did a since I'm a podcast host, since I spend a lot of time on research on my guests to make them feel like home, you know, be very, friendly when we talk. It's not like the first time because most of the guests I talk, it's the first time. And the re the reason I do research is to eliminate that awkwardness and make them feel like, okay.
Sharath:I'm talking to a friend. In order to, like, do that, I have to, like, spend a lot of time. So I was like, okay. I have a full time job back then. I'm working on my podcast, spending hours.
Sharath:Well, how can I save my time? That's when this simple idea, you know, came to life called GuestLab. You just plug in, your guest LinkedIn, you know, URL, and the AI gives you, you know, good research. I would say at the beginning, I convinced myself that this is it. Then after talking to people, this is not it.
Sharath:The AI is going to help you. It gives you a head start. Right? It's going to help you take few more steps when you're starting something. So then I realized, okay.
Sharath:Again, self awareness. It's not going to be groundbreaking even though it feels like in your own head. That's why people come in. That's why you have to do things in public. You have to talk to a lot of customers, your users, potential users, and they will make you realize all our signal picking and being aware of what you're doing.
Sharath:So, yeah, I'm I'm having fun. I use GasLab every single episode of mine, and I've we have, like, you know, a couple of paying customers who are having fun using it. So that's all that matters at this point.
Arvid:It's it's great to hear it. And it's I I'm realizing something like this myself and my own SAS business efforts that I do. Like, there are tools that are fun. And then there are tools that are useful and fun. You know?
Arvid:Like, and the moment you you see the difference between them, you cannot help but shift towards the one that is useful and fun because it is it is about serving people, not just enjoying the process of building. Right? A lot of indie hackers are, let's let's just say very self focused when it comes to building because that's just what they do. That's what they love and there's nothing wrong with that. I love coding.
Arvid:I know building stuff that I've never seen anywhere else before. There's a there's a kind of a genius moment to this where you feel like, wow, nobody ever built this and I got to do it. I mean, there's there's a lot of self centric thinking in in being a maker. And I think we have to have this because we need to be the people to build it. But the moment you see other people latching onto it, I I think Justin Jackson calls this pull from the markets.
Arvid:Like, the idea that there's demand that is so strong that they kinda come at you and try to to grab you and get your attention. The moment you find this in one thing and it's not in the other, it is at the moment where you pivot. That's the moment where you see, okay, here's some potential. It's really cool. And I I love the guest lab.
Arvid:I love the fact that you use it for your own stuff. Like, this kind of dog fooding is, generally a very good idea. I I try to do the same with all the products that I built to kind of fit them into my my own work, and seeing this for you is really great. Let's talk a little bit about your podcast for which you use it. Because first off, I really enjoyed the show.
Arvid:I had the fortune that's, you you made the fortunate choice to allow me on the show. That was really cool. And it's it's also it what? Yeah. Exactly.
Arvid:Twice. 2 times. That's right. So there's a whole celebration happening about that. Yeah.
Arvid:The show is fun. You have really interesting guests. And like you said, you worked yourself into becoming a much better interviewer that asks interesting and meaningful questions. Like, it's it's really cool to watch this now from the perspective of a software entrepreneur. Is running a podcast something that you would suggest for other founders to at least think about?
Arvid:Like, is this something that can add a lot of value to a founder's life even though they might be introverted? Like, kind of we both are introverted at the core, but when we talk to each other, it kinda goes away, and then we just have fun. Right? Because it's this is kind of more play than work. But is this is this something you suggest for other founders to start doing as well?
Sharath:Absolutely. Hell, yes. I wish I would have started a podcast back in 2018 when I was a maker. Like, doing my first product, I I should have done media, some sort of media, especially audio video back then. The reason is, like, I there are so many upsides.
Sharath:1, the biggest of the biggest thing is you're being you you're interacting with some of the best people in the world. Again, if you choose to invite them on the podcast. Right? A, your presentation skills, your expressive skills will increase massively over time, and, b, it is going to help you build a personal brand around you. No matter what, like, I think Navaal said this famously in in in Joe Rogan's podcast, personal brands are way more important than, you know, come business brands, like, you know, Steve Jobs personal brand, even though he didn't do anything.
Sharath:It's so he's a personal brand.
Arvid:Right.
Sharath:Right now, Kanye, personal brand. Like, regardless of how controversial he is, he's a brand. Oprah, brand. Like, Joe Rogan, brand. So the way you have to I think in in this day and age, the way you have to build brand, one of the ways is to, like, you know, be part of the Internet.
Sharath:And I think podcast allows you to add that personal touch because you're you're on camera, you're talking, you're exploring, you're kind of brainstorming life, And it's it's going to live at least, you know, certain time some more time. Like, I've talked not talking about dinosaurs, but it's going to live forever in a way. Because anybody can go back to that particular podcast and listen to 2 people talking interesting things. So I think there are so many upsides, personal brand. You know, you you get to become better.
Sharath:Especially, I I would highly recommend introverts to build podcast. Because whether it can be interview style like this or solo episodes. So my one of the things I want to do next is to actually launch a show solo show.
Arvid:Nice. Where? Forward to that.
Sharath:Because you you've done that before, and I love your, you know, format. It's it's you come with some certain thoughts. You explore very authentically, naturally with the people you're listening. And it I feel it takes some courage to do that because I would say interview is very easy in my opinion because I've done that. Before that, it was very hard.
Arvid:Of course.
Sharath:So you have to do certain things to make it easy for you. And I think, the two reasons why I wanna do, like, a solo show is because you learn a lot of stuff, and it's very easy to talk rather than write. Especially if you're not born to be, like, a writer or you have you don't have skill to write, just start, like, recording. I would say just record audio. Don't even put yourself on camera.
Sharath:Right? So again, baby steps. So yeah. 100 hell. Hell.
Sharath:Hell. Yes. It's it's tough when you think you have to have a show with a streamlined process in the beginning.
Arvid:That's a good point.
Sharath:That's that's it's very tough. I think a lot many people they realize because they view, you know, the Danny Miranda's of the world thinking about, hey, These this guy shipped 400 plus episodes. Let me actually do another podcast. And I'm like, okay. I can do that because it's not matching.
Sharath:So you you should not compare your step 0 to someone else's step 10. That's ridiculous. So you have to that's why I came up with this process of the way I do things, and you've been on the show twice, it's single take. That's it. So that I feel much more confident about, okay, I can do this again.
Sharath:There is no, you know so I I come prepared. I I talk to people in a friendly way, make them, you know, human, and that's it. I don't have any intention to make this as a as a, I don't know, like a drama thing. Like, a lot many podcasts, they have effects. They have, like, music here and there coming.
Sharath:They're like which is amazing, not for me. So you have to have that you have to write your own rules if you wanna become a podcaster. Really follow that and improve over time. So in the beginning, there was no intro. It was straight up episode, and that's it.
Sharath:Then I improved like, okay. Let me actually add an episode. Even, intro. Even in the podcast, the way I do things slightly change. So small, small, small improvements.
Sharath:So I feel I will eventually go there where it's, like, you know, hire a big producer, like, you know, and bigger editor and all that. So the jazz is not the right way to start. It will the jazz will come later. So have your own rules, but hell hell yes to that question 100%. People are I think there should be more podcasts than ever, I would say.
Arvid:Yeah. And there's space. Right? That's that's the wonderful thing. I was actually, like, on on this show last week as this comes out, I was talking to Yong Soo Chang, and he has a very well produced podcast.
Arvid:Like, that that guy's show is has edit editors and and all kinds of, like, voice overs and stuff, and that is fine. There are people who love this kind of show, And there are people who love this kind of show. And then there are people who love your kind of show. Right? There's there's, there's so many potential to find the right audience for you that your style will if if if it's if it is approachable, which I hope it is, you know, like everybody's everybody has interesting thoughts and everybody has something that people can relate to.
Arvid:So if there's something there, you will find the people who like it. And like you said in, in the beginning, like, you're you're not for everybody. If you're if you're working in public and podcasting is effectively working in public, you are for somebody. You just have to find the right somebodies and put the other people that are not those somebodies, shove them towards somebody else who they are for or who's for them. Right?
Arvid:I think that's that's one thing that I'm noticing in our kind of podcaster community. Some audiences, you know, there's there's no match necessarily between 2 hosts, but they can get some people from their own audience that are not too happy to the other audience and then people from that audience into their own. There is enough space for all of us. I think so. I I very much I
Sharath:think the pie is bigger for sure.
Arvid:Yeah. Yeah. And it's a growing pie. Right?
Sharath:Yeah. It's oh my god. It's a ridiculously bigger pie. I would I would say focus on your piece. Don't don't aim for the whole pie.
Arvid:That's that's a great idea.
Sharath:This is for not just podcasting, even generally in, like, life. Right? Like, you know, you you can't make a 1000000 friends. You will only have 1 or 2 or 5 or 10. That's it.
Sharath:So less is enough is what I think I repeat myself. Podcasting, same thing. You can't really attract Lex Frightman level audience. You know? Be that because that's his game.
Sharath:Again, choose your own lane, pick your own lane, but be better in your own lane. That's really important. If you're not becoming better or improve yourself from your previous episode in podcasting case
Arvid:Yes. That's that's the that's the secret. Right? The secret to Lex Fridman, to Joe Rogan, to Tim Ferris, and all these people that we admire as these massive podcasters, like, they are at episode 650. You know?
Arvid:They are they've done this for decades, particularly Joe Rogan. He's he has, like, a a history that that goes, like, back to this eighties or whatever. Like, these people have been in radio. They've been in spoken word forever. They've been in the communities forever for a long time.
Arvid:And and, again, that's their step 10. Maybe they're step 100. Right? And if you start today, all you really need to do is to get a mic. We might not even need a microphone.
Arvid:You can just use your iPhone because that is a good enough mic for most cases, and you just need to start recording. That's really where it is. Right?
Sharath:That's it. The the the step one is really important. You know? And Joe Rogan wouldn't have a I would I would bet my life he would never would have gotten the 250,000,000 dollar deal with any company when he started. No.
Sharath:For sure. It's just reps. You know, he's becoming so much better. Now it's like, you know, it's in his blood. So I think the the biggest goal is how can a skill become part of your DNA?
Arvid:Yeah. I like that. And it kinda boils down to your built the muscle approach. Right? Like, you can't it's not part of your DNA yet when you start.
Arvid:It's it's kinda in your mental DNA. You want it to be in your physical DNA, but you have to put in the work, and you have to consistently show up. That's that's certainly what it is. Alright. Okay.
Arvid:Well, what where do people go if they wanna see you show up?
Sharath:Yeah. I think most of it were, I would say, my handle is at 5 h a r a t h because I couldn't find s h a r a t h. So I kind of, like, you know,
Arvid:more to
Sharath:get got creative there instead of s, I I went with 5. So that's where I I'm mostly, you know, hang out. I do have a podcast, you know. Arvid was here couple of times. I host this podcast called the undefeated underdogs.
Sharath:I'm an underdog. I've been underestimated my whole life by a lot of people. I I love being underestimated because it's it's a fuel for me. And I talk to people who who are in the same boat and how they turn obstacles into opportunities. So I host that.
Sharath:But, yeah, you can you can also reach me out through email, charat@hey.com.
Arvid:Mhmm. You know? Just Nice. Cool plug. Yeah.
Arvid:That's that's that's a flex. The the one word, hey hey.com. You know, I got one with my first name as well, so we're both in the the same boat. That is really cool. Yeah.
Arvid:That, like, your podcast is fun because it's real. I really appreciate that about it. Right? There are a lot of shows that highlight, like, some CEOs successes in some $1,000,000,000 company. Those are not underdogs, and they are also not undefeated.
Arvid:You know? Like, they they live a life of projection and stuff. People on your show are really, really cool, insightful, and they teach. Maybe this brings us back to the the beginning of this conversation. Like, all you do, a lot of what you do is teach by example, by showing up relentlessly, and I really appreciate that.
Arvid:Thank you so much for doing this, and thank you so much for talking to me about it today.
Sharath:That means a lot coming from you, Arvid. You know, I love you so much for who you are and I kind of steal some of your authenticity and kind of rub it on me so that I can be more authentic. So appreciate you, for inviting me. This has been, you know, fun conversation. You know, I love I love
Arvid:it. Thank you. I love you too, buddy. That is really, really cool. Thank you.
Arvid:Have a wonderful day, and thanks for being on the show.
Sharath:Absolutely. Thanks, guys.
Arvid:And that's it for today. I will now briefly thank my sponsor, acquire.com. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a really solid SaaS product. You acquired all those customers, and everything is generating really consistent monthly recurring revenue. That's the dream of every SaaS founder.
Arvid:Right? Problem is you're not growing. For whatever reason, maybe it's lack of skill or lack of focus or applying lack of interest. You don't know. You just feel stuck in your business with your business.
Arvid:What should you do? Well, the story that I would like to hear is you buckled down, you reignited the fire, and you started working on the business, not just in the business. And all those things you did, like audience building and marketing and sales and outreach, They really helped you to go down this road, 6 months down the road, making all that money. You tripled your revenue, and you have this hyper successful business. That is the dream.
Arvid:The reality unfortunately is not as simple as this. And the situation that you might find yourself in is looking different for every single founder who's facing this crossroad. This problem is common, but it looks different every time. But what doesn't look different every time is the story that here just ends up being one of inaction and stagnation. Because the business becomes less and less valuable over time and then eventually completely worthless if you don't do anything.
Arvid:So if you find yourself here, already at this point, or you think your story is likely headed down a similar road, I would consider a third option, and that is selling your business on inquire dot com. Because you capitalizing on the value of your time today is a pretty smart move. It's certainly better than not doing anything. And acquire.com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of founders already.
Arvid:Just go check it out at try. Acquire.com/arvid, it's me, and see for yourself if this is the right option for you, your business at this time. You might just wanna wait a bit and see if it works out half a year from now or a year from now. Just check
Arvid:it out. It's always good to be in the know.
Arvid:Thank you for listening to the Bootstrap founder today. I really appreciate that. You can find me on Twitter at avidkar, a r v e r I k a h l. You find
Arvid:my books and my Twitter course tattoo. If you wanna support me and the show, please subscribe to my YouTube channel, get the podcast in your podcast player of choice, whatever that
Arvid:might be. Do let me know. It would be interesting to see. And leave a rating and review by going to rate this podcast.com/founder. It really makes a big difference if you show up there, because then this podcast shows up in other people's feeds.
Arvid:And that's, I think, where we all would like it to be. Just helping other people learn and see and understand new things. Any of this will help to show. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening.
Arvid:Have a wonderful day, and bye bye.
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