320: Dr. Jessica Gold — Emotional Resilience and Self-Care for Founders
Download MP3Today, I'm talking to doctor Jessica Gold. She's helping founders and creators have healthy and pleasurable relationships while building their impactful businesses. You'll find today's conversation to be a very personal and intimate exploration of the part of our founder lives that we often neglect to approach with the same scientific rigor that we apply to pricing or which text that we should use. So let's talk about sex, love and the presence of our own selves from the founder perspective. This episode is sponsored by acquire.com.
Arvid:More on that later. Now here's doctor Jessica Gold. Doctor Jessica, welcome to the show. Now on this podcast, I often talk to founders about strategies to overcoming challenges, that kind of stuff, and most of those are very cerebral, quite intellectual. Today, I'm stoked to have an expert here who can speak to the much overlooked side of things, the emotional work, relationships, sexuality, passion, that kind of stuff.
Arvid:I cannot wait to see what we can do for founders on that front today. Doctor Jessica, how are you doing today?
Jessica:I am so happy to be here with you and really excited for this. Thanks, Arvind.
Arvid:Yeah. I'm I'm very excited too. It's it's very rare I get to talk to experts on just the general side of mental health to begin with. And then to to have them look into the relationship side, like the interpersonal side that is not just, you know, business exchange, but actually a more physical and more more real thing to the experience of most people, I'm I'm quite excited. So let me start with a pretty popular question that is very much related to this relational topic that I often find in my DMs when people reach out to me with their questions about, you know, their business journey, entrepreneurial journey.
Arvid:Should I or should I not start a business with my life partner? Is my wife or my husband a good cofounder?
Jessica:Excellent question. So I'll be honest, usually the answer to that is no. And that is because starting a business with your partner is gonna amplify any issues that you already have in your relationship, and it could cause a lot more stress unless you're already in a really great place, you both have amazing communication skills which you've practiced, and you've sat down and asked yourself some really hard questions about whether or not you should do that. In fact, the Wall Street Journal just came out with an article with 9 questions you should ask a potential cofounder before going into business together, and you should at least ask those questions.
Arvid:Yeah. Probably even more intensely than anybody else. Right? Like, the I I had this in my own experience. I cofounded very successfully a business with my life partner, And we're still together, we live in the same house.
Arvid:So that's a pretty good sign. We exited the business together, we went through almost a traumatic event of loss and grief for a business as a couple would in in other situations. So I I know the roller coaster of this this whole, situation to be in and how intense it can be to have to wear the head of a partner, of a life partner and a business partner, and how weird it is to to to be both at the same time. We really we already had, and thanks for pointing this out, a communication strategy between us for years prior to this that really worked, like we could talk to each other, but most people might not. Do you have any if people are in this situation, they have they have their they're with their partner, maybe even just a family member, but somebody who they have a a non just professional relationship with, do you have steps or a framework for them to kind of facilitate better communication that is both honest and productive?
Jessica:Yeah. I think I'm gonna make these steps up right now in front of you because I haven't written them down before. I usually do it really organically with whoever comes to see me, you know, very specific to the dynamic that's in front of me. So the first thing I would say is make sure that you have agreed on a North Star. Like, what is the purpose?
Jessica:What are you both focused on in terms of what you're doing together? That way, if some impediment is coming up, you can say, hey, I think that this this, problem that you're having is preventing us from hitting our goal, from focusing on our North Star together. And you might need to go and address it. That way you instead of it coming across as criticism for the other person, it comes across as, okay, there's this thing and we're both pointed at this goal together. Here's a challenge or an obstacle in the path.
Jessica:And it helps the other person say, okay, I'm gonna go address this issue that's coming up. So first, you would agree on a North Star together. Second, you would talk about how do you handle discord? How do you handle disagreements? And you would really need to test that and write down, okay, what are some ways of responding to each other when things get heated and challenging?
Jessica:Do I get defensive? Do I resort to giving advice? Do I counter attack? Or am I able to take responsibility for my role in what's going on? So those are some really key things that you definitely need to have in place and you need to check for, in terms of your communication skills together.
Jessica:The last thing would be, how do you handle uncomfortable emotions? And this is related to communication because if you're angry or disappointed or scared, and there's a lot of charge in your body and there's like a hot tight feeling, it can cause us to lash out in our communication. The energy of that emotion has taken us over. And so you need to both commit to having emotional regulation skills so that you're not just taking out the charge on each other.
Arvid:Yeah. This is this is something that I it it sounds like communication 101, but obviously, it's it's much more nuanced than that. Right? Because you're in a high pressure situation together, and the the the old rules that you may have had for your relationship before may not work anymore. And what this reminds me of in in a lot of consulting calls that I had with founders, and, of course, I'm not a psychologist.
Arvid:I I cannot, and I'm not a therapist either, help people with these issues, but I hear them. Right? I hear them complain about things like emotional regulation and them struggling with it, both even if they don't have a business with a life partner, if they have a business with somebody else, this emotional tension spills over into their personal life in very significant ways. And I think that might be that that is your field, right, understanding the connection between these things. And I would like to to ask you what you have found in your work with entrepreneurs, with founders.
Arvid:What problems exist in, you know, the the emotional under regulation inside the business and then the overreaction into the personal life or maybe lack of, emotional regulation in the personal realm?
Jessica:So actually what I find is that a lot of powerful founders tend to be able to do some kind of emotional regulation when it comes to business, interestingly. But when it comes to their intimate relationship with their wife or their partner back home, that's when it goes sideways. And, you know, a lot of times then you can end up feeling like an imposter. I've had, you know, very powerful men say this to me. I they say I'm really sought after in business.
Jessica:I'm very successful. I'm great at what I do. Everyone wants to talk to me. But then when I get home, my partner, it's like an ice cave. You know, there's no connection there, and I just wanna feel connected.
Jessica:I wanna love deeply and connect deeply.
Arvid:That that that's honestly, I've had that in the past personally myself that there's this this overwhelming respect and authority that you command in in your professional life, and then kind of a very different presence in your personal life. Why is that? Like, why is there such a strong definite difference there?
Jessica:Well, it's a great question, a question so pertinent to our times. One of the answers that I think about is that it's laudable, it's commendable, it's acceptable to study business and to be good at business and to make mistakes in business even. Like, it's normal that something won't go right or a business will fail and you'll start over or that your marketing won't work and you have to go back to the drawing board and think, okay, what could I do differently here? But all of those same reflexes and things that we get rewarded for in business, we get shamed for when it comes to personal relating. So it's really still considered uncouth, like, it's just not done.
Jessica:You shouldn't have to study anything about relating romantically. It should just be natural. You should just be able to figure it out all by yourself. And asking for help is like, oh, something's really wrong. That's very shameful.
Jessica:And we haven't come out of that yet. There isn't yet permission to be nerds and study relating with as much, you know, intensity as we study business. And I wish that was different. I'm on a mission to make that.
Arvid:Yeah. I can tell. I love that. And it's it's so weird because it's a taboo for some reason. And I I guess there's a, like, a religious connotation to this or to kinda keep it in the the family unit and to kinda not expose this as a vulnerability into the wider world.
Arvid:That's kinda where I come from. My my upbringing was that, like, you don't talk about personal business. You don't talk about business to begin with. I'm I'm, like, I'm an east of east German descent, which is kind of a Soviet controlled kinda post war Germany. There was a lot of weird stuff going on, but that is part of it too.
Arvid:Like, a lot of, tall poppy syndrome, like, you just don't stand out. You don't talk about things that everybody else doesn't talk about, and personal relationship was part of this. So I I'm still kinda exploring that space myself. And what what you just said, I relate to this a lot. Like, I let's just say I struggle romantically.
Arvid:That is sometimes a problem. That for me, romance, conceptually, is hard to grasp. And, honestly, I don't feel I have enough people to talk about this particular problem that can help me with this, and I would like to. And I don't want this to turn into a therapy session, but I might just as well be open and vulnerable here because, again, this is my podcast. I could do whatever I want.
Arvid:Right? So might just as well, like, share these little things, maybe hopefully helping other people to be open about this too. What can I do in a situation like this? What should I do?
Jessica:Mhmm. Oh, such a great question, and thank you for your openness. I'm totally here for it. I mean, I talk about this all day with everyone, so I'm used to it. And just to be clear, everybody, I came to this work from making all the mistakes myself.
Jessica:So it's not like I was walking a blessed path in this world. I had, you know, I also had a very challenging marriage and divorce and dating life. So well, you're saying what can you do to have more romance in your intimate relationship?
Arvid:Yeah. Pretty much.
Jessica:Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So here's the deal. If it requires, I would say for most of us, a total reorientation to how we relate to our day to day, moment to moment experience of life.
Jessica:And if you're really driven and you're working really hard, and listen, I know what that's like. I went to MIT. I have a PhD in organic chemistry. I was very, very driven. And it was like, okay, after I reach this, then I can relax.
Jessica:After I get that done, then I can relax. And the days just went by, and I was hyper focused on my to do list. And they just went by in a blur, and all of a sudden a whole decade had gone by. And we kind of think of taking care of our body or our emotions or our sexual life as, like, secondary or maybe a little bit weak or not even just not something you should pay attention to. But I want you to reorient and consider that those things massively support your ability to be productive and be successful in a way that doesn't kill your soul.
Arvid:That would be good.
Jessica:Yeah. And because so many businessmen tell me, yes, I created a $40,000,000 business, but it just ate my soul and I was completely unhappy. At that level, I had access to everyone and everything and I was still totally lonely. So we need to take care of, we need to blend in, weave in the tending to our erotic life, our romantic life while we're founding. And here's how you do it.
Jessica:It's not about grand gestures, it doesn't take a lot of time. What it is, is a change in your moment to moment attitude toward life. Right? So, when you get up from your chair after a meeting, you like, stretch your toes out, feel your feet on the earth, undulate your spine, take a deep inhale, and just like receive pleasure from all 5 senses. This as a man is so important.
Jessica:It's gonna light you up, fill you up, make you radiate, and make your female partner go, oh, what is he doing? Like, when you're letting yourself fill your own cup through your 5 senses. It's so simple. So, like, put things in your room that are beautiful to your eyes. Make it smell lovely around you or, you know, I like to use little perfumes or, you know, little burn little bits of things that smell nice.
Jessica:So make it smell lovely. Make it feel good, like have some delicious fabrics around that feel great on your skin. These sorts of things to fill your pleasure cup on your own. So you're already getting lit up when I talk about it, you know, and when you eat, like savor the taste of what you're eating until it just goes away and you don't know when the taste ended and the infinite began in your mouth. So it's like that attitude that you carry through your day.
Jessica:And part of that too is like these little micro moments. So when you pass your partner in the hallway, like you're on the way to get a snack and she's on the way to the bathroom, Do you, like, whisper a sweet nothing in her ear and then just smile and carry on. Right? Or do you twirl her hair just the way that she likes it and then go about your business? Just before this call, I went up to my partner in the kitchen and I said, I need a hug.
Jessica:And so he just, like, crushed me in his arms for, you know, 10, 20 seconds, a good long time and we breathe until I could feel the charge drain out of my body. So it's those little things that fill your cup throughout the day. And this is also scientifically shown that this helps the female nervous system relax, open, and it allows our desire to to grow a little bit. How's that land for you so far?
Arvid:It's it's you expressed this in a really, really wonderful way. Like, a a really visually descriptive, and and that that's how I resonate as well. Like, that's that's that's how I take things in. What I hear is just be present in in a in a way that involves not just intellectual presence, not just like being, you know, cognitively there, but being presence, not just like being, you know, cognitively there, but being centrally there or or sensitivity there and, like, in all the senses. And I I like this.
Arvid:I I it's funny because, like, I had a couple experience over the last couple days that really resonate with this. One was just yesterday. We we live in Ontario here and Southern Ontario where it's it gets quite nice and warm in the summer, and it's super cold in the winter. And now is the time when the sun comes back out. And I, yesterday, caught myself just just standing outside on our little porch that we have here, and our puppy was laying down in the sun.
Arvid:And I decided to lay next to her and just take in the sun like feel myself in like the the birdsong in the air and the the presence of the the warmth of the sun on my face. And I started laughing, like, just almost uncontrollably sitting next to my puppy. Like, Danielle was inside. She was probably wondering what I was doing, but I I kinda I came to to realize that I live in this moment, and I get to enjoy it. And that that feeling has been with me ever since.
Arvid:It's and it's it's made me happier. It's made made me more willing to put away my work for a minute and just be be there with myself and others. So this is what resonates with me here, like my my personal experience there. Also, I just wanna point out how smart the dog must be to just gravitate to this automatically. Right?
Arvid:Like, aren't they the smartest animals? They are in the moment at all times. They get this. Right? They they they get these kind of moments.
Arvid:I I really appreciate this. Thank you for for making it so clear. I I feel like I'm on the path. It's just often I reprioritize my work over this. Like, there there comes the moment where I come back into my little den here in the basement where my studio is and where I work, where I write my code and where I read my books and where I write my books and, you know, where all this this head stuff happens.
Arvid:And even though I made this a nice place that I like, I have a nice couch that feels good. I have plants in here. I have my weird nerd posters on the wall that I enjoy to to look at and all that, I still retract into myself, and it it becomes this kind of cognitive isolated loop, and I I focus too much on work. How can I keep being productive? And this is I don't not sure if there is an answer other than, well, you have to figure it out, but how can I keep focusing on my work while also allowing myself to step away from it?
Arvid:Particularly when the work that I do as a software engineer is so flow state based, which takes me so long to get into. And then I hope to stay in there for as much as I can without interruption that those little moments often feel like an intrusion for me.
Jessica:Yeah. I love that point about flow state. I mean, flow state is a great state to be in. So ultimately, it comes down to choosing. And, you know, you have to ask yourself the question when you're on your deathbed and you look back at your life, are you going to say, damn, I wish I had worked harder.
Jessica:Basically, nobody ever says that. I mean, we know this from memory. If you just think about it, when you look back on your life, what will have been most important? And, yes, founding a successful company is supremely important. But you just need to choose, what do you you want your life to be?
Jessica:And give yourself permission. Like, if you're like, today, I'm just gonna be in flow state, in my cave all day, and that is what I'm choosing. That is perfectly fine. But is that what you want your everyday to look like? And, you know, for me, it was a huge shift to give myself permission to have pleasure now.
Jessica:I would it was scary because I've been taught that pleasure was frivolous, that pleasure will lead you to the devil, even, you know, that pleasure was a waste of time. But and I was, like, I remember, you know, because I am super driven and I would just, like, work work work all day. And the first time when I realized, oh, wait, I could take a nap
Arvid:now? Yes.
Jessica:Or I could go get in the hot tub for 15 minutes before my next call. Oh, my gosh. Radical. And yet, I cherish those moments. They are the I they are the ways I savor life, and they profoundly support me to be happier and show up even better for my clients.
Arvid:Yeah. It doesn't have to be hedonism. Right? Like it can still just be the occasional indulgence. Yeah.
Jessica:Yeah. Or I could take a walk in the sun and smell the trees and look at the ocean. It was radical, and yet now those are woven into my day, and I would never give them up.
Arvid:Do do you actively make time for these? Like, do you schedule and and I know this this sounds hilarious probably, but do you do you set times for these moments to happen or do you organically allow space for them? Like how how would you do this for somebody who is so bound to a schedule or so bound to like going through the list and doing as much as they can in a day to give this enough priority to to find time for these little moments.
Jessica:I know that being very scheduled is popular, and I am quite an organic scheduler. And you have to find what works for you. I know that after holding space for someone's really deep relationship struggles, it doesn't serve me, and it doesn't serve my clients to go back to back into the next session. So I keep space in my calendar, and there's often organically space, just anyway, just because of how the scheduling works. They'll pop up a free 30 minutes here or there sometimes.
Jessica:So just do what's best for you, but I do recommend scheduling at least 5 minutes where you can check-in with, okay, what what does my body want right now? And what is if I could be in pleasure now, what would that look like? Even right now, as I'm talking to you though, I'm doing it. So I actually am not wearing shoes because I hate wearing shoes. And we have wood floors, and real wood feels like, oh, on my feet.
Jessica:So I'm, like, rubbing my foot against the wood floor, and it just feels so good. And even the way I breathe, so I'm inhaling all the way down to my pelvic floor and, like, saying hello to, like, my full torso as I'm talking to you. Because for me, that's pleasurable and also powerful. I feel like, ugh, grounded and present, and, like, my whole body's online, And I love that feeling. And what I've noticed even in my most recalcitrant or skeptical clients that once they get a taste of how good this feels, they naturally orient toward it.
Jessica:And they don't have to think about it or schedule it in. They're just like, oh, no. No. I'm gonna do that. And it just becomes automatic.
Arvid:I I love this focus on, like, the bodily sensation. I I'm I'm just gonna take a little step back in time. I think 10 years ago or 15 years ago when I was, you know, not a kid anymore, but pretty young, maybe in my twenties somewhere, I would have never ever thought about, like, breathing exercises or meditation or relaxation as a means to be productive. I would have called this, I don't know, like, esoteric stuff, and I would have dismissed it completely. I am honestly, I'm glad I met Danielle because she introduced me through the lens of a scientific perspective to this kind of stuff.
Arvid:And all of it, right, then all of a sudden I noticed, oh, deep breath, like, pelvic floor breathing, that actually relaxes much more than what you think a breath can do. Like, it relaxes you on a level that you may not ever have relaxed before because you never actively did this. Like, I've I've been trying to to figure out, like, meditation for or yoga, these kind of things, things that I would have completely dismissed in the past now feel like almost a cheat code to finding your your own bodily awareness. So it's funny because I'm sitting here without shoes, like, noticing the the what I have carpet down here, and I I've been noticing as you said it that I've been, like, slowly stroking my foot over the carpet for the exact same reason. It's a grounding thing.
Arvid:It's a it's a physical sensation I enjoy. Right? And it's it gives me almost, it gives me strength to have a wonderful conversation about a topic that I might not feel innately comfortable discussing. Right? So there's there's all of that, and I can actively do this.
Arvid:That's what I'm feeling right now, which is really, really cool. So thank you for mirroring this in a way that makes it accessible.
Jessica:You're so welcome. My pleasure.
Arvid:Wait. And and that's what it is. Right? It is quite literally pleasure. It's a it's something very physical, very connected to a part that we, like you said, very often dismiss because it's not, you know, I don't know, in fashion to talk about non intellectual things with the same fervor as we would do about, like, academic achievements or business entrepreneurial achievements.
Arvid:I would I would like to ask you about the flip side of what we just talked about, because we talked about the the kind of tension and stress in the business and that impacting your personal life. How does the opposite of this look? How does a stressful and maybe unorganized and conflict ridden personal sex life or an erotic life, just a relational life, how does that impact our capacity to be entrepreneurial, to be good founders, good makers, product makers like that?
Jessica:So how does not having a supportive relationship or having an desert at home and how does that negatively That's really good.
Arvid:Yeah. Kind of. Yeah. How does that impact our capacity to to build something of meaning and of impact for others?
Jessica:Yeah. I think it has a profound impact based on everyone I've spoken to. You know, when at home, you don't feel desired, you don't feel respected, you don't feel deeply connected. There's this low level stress or anxiety of, am I good enough? You know, is this gonna work?
Jessica:You're totally stressed out at home. It's not a place where you can recharge and, like, relax and just feel loved up and grounded and all those yummy things. When you don't have that, then you go to work and you're already on a short fuse. So, you know, if you've just had a fight with your wife or you're feeling super frustrated and your energy is all pent up because you haven't had sex in 6 months, then that's gonna come out in, you you know, how many bad decisions are you gonna be making about how you're using your money that could end up costing you 1,000,000 of dollars?
Arvid:Yeah. It it obviously, like, it's an energy transfer transference kind of situation, right, where you cannot look at one side without looking at the other. You cannot have the professional and the personal without them being, like, massively connected on the energy level. That's what I'm hearing.
Jessica:Yeah. Exactly. And, you know, how are you gonna treat your coworkers if you're just a tight ball of stress inside or you're, you know, secretly on the verge of tears or feeling rejected or lonely, it might also make you, make decisions around, you know, stepping outside of your relationship, like sneaking around and having relationships that have really unforeseen consequences, you know, at the office or with your in your business, so it can have a lot of detrimental effects.
Arvid:Yeah, absolutely. Well, here's the thing. I I know that you actively help men out of this right now. Right? You have this coach coaching group program for men in tech and finance.
Arvid:Can you talk more about this? Like how you actually help people out of this?
Jessica:Yeah. That's a great question. Everyone, you know, in this world, we're all like, I wanna know the how. How does this work? And the thing is that so right now what I what I love to do is I'm I'm actually refocusing on my one on ones.
Jessica:So I, you know, help men just 1 on 1 or in couples. I love working with couples too over Zoom, so I can work with you from anywhere in the world. And, so the secret is that it's not about convincing yourself to be better. It's not about using the logic of your mind to change this. If that worked, you would have already done it because you're already really good at logic.
Jessica:And this is the thing about this world. Like, I didn't believe in it. I was really suspicious of this world, but actually there's plenty of science. There's plenty of studies these days to show the importance of, like, nonverbal, nonlinear, like the right hemisphere and somatic processes, that are essential and key in our healing. So actually, we know that subconsciously, we have a lot of paradigms playing out in our mind that we're unaware of, for example.
Jessica:And so simply becoming aware of those blind spots and instead choosing intentionally how we wanna show up is one of the first things that we do. But then it's really about asking your body. So I will watch you as you talk to me or we'll do a process, and I will watch what's going on in your body. And then we will turn toward what's happening with curiosity and acceptance. It's not about, oh, I shouldn't feel angry or I shouldn't feel sad or I should only be happy.
Jessica:There's no shoulds and there's no perfect. There's no ideal. Where I work through the process of radical acceptance of the truth of your moment to moment experience of life. And we get curious about that. And it might sound way out of left field, but the men that I work with are totally down and they do it, and we talk to what's going on in your body.
Jessica:And there's a lots of different ways to do this. Some times you hear it called psychodrama. Sometimes you hear it called parts work. You know, there's process work. There's all kinds of different names for this at this point.
Jessica:Lots of modalities, but it's about listening to what's going on in your body with the assumption that your body is wise. And it's acting the way it's acting because it's trying to tell you something. There's a message there that you haven't been able to hear because you've been too busy shoving it away and trying to, own up to some imagined ideal of how you're supposed to be.
Arvid:Yeah. Yeah, I guess that is particularly easy in a world of social media where there are a lot of ideals being peddled, right? A lot of, you know, just very, very reductive ways of how a man in particular, but anybody really should be, and what makes them great, what makes them powerful, what makes them strong. And that often very likely overloads people's self perception that they should be having with somebody else's perception that they make money off. That's a problem.
Arvid:Right? Like, there's a lot of very, very toxic advice around this in the community.
Jessica:It's so toxic. It's so bad out there. I mean, it's just gone wild and gone to some very challenging extremes, on the Internet. Yeah. With the pop psychology advice.
Arvid:That's really what it is. Yeah. I mean, that that and and were you making a strong case for actually talking to a credentialed expert in the field, right, to somebody who knows not just what they think they should know, but who actually went through the process of being certified to be able to help people. In in a way like therapy is still a taboo for many people. I've recently started doing this myself because I'm like, it's it's about time, like, to have a a weekly or biweekly therapy check-in, and it's been one of the most liberating things for me to have somebody to talk to.
Arvid:Because I don't have many friends. Like, I'm I moved from Germany to Canada. I left a lot of people behind just geographically, and it's not the same, right, to to communicate with people in in a asynchronous way than sitting with somebody having a a beverage of some sort and just, you know, communicating about deeply relatable but still very personal topics. Therapy facilitates that, and I've been very skeptical in the beginning. And then I saw people around me use it, like, use it.
Arvid:Like, and that that's the how again. You you're talking to a maker. You're talking to an engineer. Right? Like, that's it it is it always becomes a tool.
Arvid:But, hey, if that's what I need, then it is a tool, and it's a tool to greater self awareness and to allowing new things in. I've actively worked on finding more time for things that are not work, for building a calm business instead of a crazy chaotic business. That is all intentional to be able to be there for Danielle and for the family and for the people around me that I care about. And therapy and working with experts like yourself unlocks this for me. So thank you a lot just even for making it clear what the direction is to go because most people struggle even making the choice that they wanna go into that direction.
Arvid:The taboo, the kind of the self flagellation around this is still super strong. Do do you notice that as well? Like, do you see this hesitation in people who come to you?
Jessica:I do see it sometimes, but usually things have gotten to a point where it's so severe that, like, they're just at a breaking point. And I wish that people would come a lot sooner. I think having a coach or a therapist, like, you're building a business, it's normal to get a business coach. Right? I mean, the sooner you can have one, the better.
Jessica:It's such a laudable thing. I have so much respect for any man who's in therapy. I'm like, oh my gosh. There's a man I can trust. I can have a real conversation with him.
Jessica:You know, we can really go deep. I really respect that a lot. So, I mean, I live in California, so I think the stigma is a lot less. And yet still in the entrepreneurial world, it it persists. But I think it's one of the most commendable things you can do as a founder.
Jessica:It will help you almost more than anything else. Because you cannot see your own blind spots. You know, what I like to say is in terms of it's like we're all testing our relational code in production.
Arvid:Yeah. It's what it is.
Jessica:As a software
Arvid:Yeah. For sure.
Jessica:As a as a software engineer, if you test your code in production, you get fired. When you test your relational code, the first time you test it is in your marriage, then you get divorced.
Arvid:It it that super resonates with me because it it I actually did this, like, last week or just before this comes out. I tried something and I tested it in production and it broke. You know what I did? I just rolled it back, and it it was no problem. But that doesn't work with relationships.
Arvid:Right? Like, people you can't roll back people. That does not work. No. Yeah.
Jessica:Right. So when you think of it that way, it's just normal. Oh, of course, I would like go and test my relational code with a coach or a therapist before, like, betting my entire rest of my life on it.
Arvid:Yeah. That's that's wonderful. That that makes a lot of sense. I think this is maybe the the perfect analogy for people to to understand, like, how dangerous it is to just, like, kind of wing it in that regard. And you said that people come to you at a point where it's almost like a breaking point.
Arvid:Do you have any early warning signs that people may not be aware of where they should be starting to look into this before it is too late?
Jessica:It depends on what you're talking about. If you're talking about dating or an established relationship, But I think that So one of the things to look out for in dating is don't get together with someone who's a project. Like, don't get together. That maybe sounds worse than I meant it. Don't get together thinking the other person will change into what you want them to be.
Jessica:That is one of the most common mistakes that I see. And also, don't rush in mistaking chemistry for compatibility. Take your time and see how she reacts when things don't go her way, when you have a fight, when she's stressed out. You know, assess for emotional intelligence. This is going to be key to your happiness together over the long term.
Jessica:In a marriage, you know, if there's a lot of you always, you never, you definitely wanna come in at the first sign of that happening. Or if she seems really disconnected from you and is always in hyperproductive mode and stressed all the time, and you don't ever see a way for you 2 to connect, there's definitely some underlying issues that it's better to address now as opposed to later when there's a huge pile of hurts that have built up.
Arvid:So what what I hear is lack of connection, lack of honesty, lack of clarity, and if any of these are present or if you feel like you have to change somebody, like you have to constantly work on them instead of having them work on themselves, that's, that's a pretty strong signal. Wow.
Jessica:I have one more. Also, if when you share what's true for you and not in an attacking way, but in like a, I'm really feeling sad right now about this dynamic. And if all you get is defensiveness in return, then you need to address that early rather than waiting for it to pile up for years or decades.
Arvid:Yeah. That's, that sounds like something that can nest very deeply in your soul and destroy it from the inside out. Being that dismissive and defensive. Yeah. Makes makes perfect sense to me.
Arvid:I hope that everybody who listens here today is on a little bit higher alert and internally to to feel these things and hear them when they're trying to, you know, call out from their the deeply suppressed psyche somewhere. I I really appreciate everything you shared with me here today. I think it it was nice to to hear just how how wonderfully present one can be to be more present with others. I think it starts with an internal thing and then turns into an external thing. And I really appreciate you sharing your insights from your practice as well.
Arvid:So if people wanted to talk to you, find you somewhere, find you on the Internet, find you on social media, where would you want them to go to reach out to you?
Jessica:So you can go to jessicagold.com. It's spelled g o l d, jessicagold.com, and you can find out how to contact me there. And I will also say I am also a founder. So I founded a tech company with my partner. So I am doing that thing that I told you probably you shouldn't do.
Arvid:I mean, come on. We we both founded something with our partners. What what are we gonna say? Right?
Jessica:Yeah. But we did talk about it very seriously beforehand. So I understand the founder journey, in addition to being a scientist myself. So you can find me at jessicagold.com. I would recommend you friend me on Facebook.
Jessica:I'm Jessica Gold and Bliss Science. I post a lot of interesting things on Facebook. I do have an Instagram. It's at bliss.scienceorlinkedin. Those are my faves.
Arvid:Wonderful. I'm gonna put them all in the show notes. And I think we should have another conversation about the founder side of things in the future. I really appreciate that you shared all your your psychological expertise with me today, but I really wanna see where that project of yours goes. It's an AI project.
Arvid:Right? Yeah. I I'm I'm looking forward to having you back on the on the podcast to talk about that in particular because that would be wonderful if you're up for it, obviously. But I I would like to
Jessica:Oh, absolutely. And, Yeah. I can I say one teaser about that?
Arvid:Put it in.
Jessica:I asked my partner to clone me, and that's how it all started. So
Arvid:That's a that's a great way of teasing it. I'm I'm looking forward to having that chat and see you on the show. Thank you so much, doctor Jessica. It was absolutely spectacular to have you on today.
Jessica:My pleasure. Anytime. Best of luck to you.
Arvid:And that's it for today. I will now briefly thank my sponsor, acquire.com. Imagine this, you're a founder who's built a really solid SaaS product. You acquired all those customers, and everything is generating really consistent monthly recurring revenue. That's the dream of every SaaS founder.
Arvid:Right? Problem is you're not growing. For whatever reason, maybe it's lack
Arvid:of skill or lack of
Arvid:focus or applying lack of interest. You don't know. You just feel stuck in your business with your business. What should you do? Well, the story that I would like to hear is that you buckled down, you reignited the fire, and you started working on the business, not just in the business.
Arvid:And all those things you did, like audience building and marketing and sales and outreach, they really helped you to go down this road 6 months down the road making all that money. You tripled your revenue, and you have this hyper successful business. That is the dream. The reality unfortunately is not as simple as this. And the situation that you might find yourself in is looking different for every single founder who's facing this crossroad.
Arvid:This problem is common, but it looks different every time. But what doesn't look different every time is the story that
Arvid:here just ends up being one of inaction
Arvid:and stagnation. Because the business becomes less and less valuable over time and then eventually completely worthless if you don't do anything. So if you find yourself here, already at this point, or you think your story is likely headed down a similar road, I would consider a third option, and that is selling a business on acquire.com. Because you capitalizing on the value of your time today is a pretty smart move. It's certainly better than not doing anything.
Arvid:And acquire.com is free to list. They've helped hundreds of founders already. Just go check it out at try. Acquire.com/arvid, that's me, and see for yourself if this is the right option for you, your business at this time. You might just wanna wait a bit and see
Arvid:if it works out half
Arvid:a year from now or a year from now. Just check it out. It's always good to be in the know.
Arvid:Thank you for listening to
Arvid:the Bootstrap founder today. I really appreciate that. You can find me on Twitter at Avidkar, aravedkarikahl, and you find my books and my Twitter core stats too. If you wanna support me and this show, please subscribe to my YouTube channel, get the podcast in your podcast player of choice, whatever that might be. Do let me know.
Arvid:It would be interesting to see. And leave a rating and a review by going to ratethispodcast.com/founder. It really makes a big difference if you show up there because then this podcast shows up in other people's feeds, and that's I think where we all would like it to be. Just helping other people learn and see and understand new things. Any of this will help the show.
Arvid:I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for listening. Have a wonderful day, and bye bye.
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