The Bootstrapped Founder

Arvid Kahl: Welcome to The
Bootstrapped Founder. Today, I'm

talking to Moritz Dausinger, a
serial indie hacker with several

exits under his belt. Moritz
most recently pivoted his

software business refiner after
18 months of trying to figure

out a way forward. Well, now
he's founded. We will chat about

figuring out how to structure
sales, how and who to hire, and

if he really wants to sell this
business again for a third time.

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conversation about all of this,

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option for you at this time. All

right, here is Moritz Dausinger.

Moritz, I really have to thank
you not just for being on this

podcast today, but for having
been on podcasts in the past in

August of 2017. And this is six
years ago, which is crazy. You

went on the Indie Hackers
podcast and that was episode 24.

It was barely a couple months
old at that time. You talked

about building and selling mail
parser. And I remember this

podcast episode so vividly. I
have like a visual memory of

this. I was traveling through
Berlin, just coming home from

work in the espon right there.
And I heard you mentioned that

you sold your business to a
private equity company. And it

blew my mind that day. I just
didn't know, I didn't know that

was possible. And you also
mentioned the name of that

company, which is something I
will never forget because we

ended up selling our SaaS
business to the same private

equity company two years later
and in a way that makes you

responsible for our exit. So I
just wanted to extend a very big

thank you to you and just point
out how powerful it can be to

share your story in public like
you did on that podcast. So I'm

really, really glad you're here
today as well. So thank you so

much for that.

Moritz Dausinger: Man, you can't
imagine how happy I am to

hearing this. And now look at
us, what? Six years later? Seven

years later?

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, almost seven

Moritz Dausinger: And I remember
when I got asked to speak on the

indie hackers podcast, I wasn't
hesitating. It was quite new. I

knew the website I bet. Well, it
was kind of a niche experience

back then this whole indie
hackers thing. And yeah, lucky.

I did. I think there's so many
also from my career and my story

after coming afterward. So many
good things came from this one

podcast, which which was, I
think, actually my first one

ever. So now lucky me into the
right thing, right?

Arvid Kahl: That's right. That's
a that's a great start to start

podcasting, probably in what is
still the best podcast in the

space, right, at least the most
renowned podcasts that I could

think of when I think about
indie hacking. So are you still

an indie hacker? Do you still
consider yourself an indie

hacker?

Moritz Dausinger: Oh, well,
well, I think I stopped putting

myself a label on quite a long
time ago. Because it really

depends with who I'm talking to.
Like, for example, if I would

talk to my parents, I would say
I'm middle stand it on the name

like Sherman. I don't know small
business IT company. So I'm not

a startup? I'm not. I would
Yeah, I would say it's a small

IT company. We are several
people. So I'm not really an

indie hacker, but I'm the solo
founder. At the same time, it's

mostly self finance. So yeah,
you could say you could also say

I'm just a 40 Something guy who
has an IT company and building

software, right?

Arvid Kahl: I guess that's
that's what most Germans would

be much more easily You can
attract it to as a concept they

would understand like, you know,
the middle middle student,

that's what we call it right?
middle middle class, small

business thing. That is
something relatable to most

people. It is interesting that
you mentioned this, like you

said, you're having a team. So
you're not an indie hacker

anymore. That I mean, that's not
exactly what you said. But it's

kind of, you know, a sentiment
that once you grow your business

to a certain size, it feels less
in the less independent, it

still might be financially,
right, you might might still

have most of your funds coming
actually from your customers.

But there is some dependency in
the business, either for your

team members, so they have a job
like a stable income, or to

customers who really rely on
you. Now there is a dependency

in there. That is something that
I don't hear many people talk

about, like, what's that
dependency, that newfound

dependency in a previously
independent business is let's,

let's maybe talk about what
you're currently building, or

maybe, okay, let's start with
that. Because we can talk about

the things you built in the past
afterwards. We don't need to be

chronologically correct. But
you're currently working on

refiner. And I think refiner has
an amazing long and I guess,

order yes and stressful story.
Like to hear about it. How did

that go? Like after selling your
first few businesses? You

started refining? What? What
made you jump into that again?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So when
I sold my last company, Doc

parser, I had an agreement with
the buyer, where I would stay on

for a couple of what was one and
a half years actually. And I

would readily transition out of
the company. So his interest was

basically as long as things are
going well, I'm getting, I'm

going to work less and less fine
for me. However, back then,

having a wife having kids means
you're not free to go anywhere

in the world. So you kind of
stuck where you are in the

office still. And so I thought
why not just build the next one,

right? I mean, I need to do
something. And so when I was

running doc parser, I had this
need to qualify my signups like

they would create an account. I
didn't want to have too many

questions while they are
creating their accounts. I

wanted to them to experience the
software right away. But I still

had some questions I would have
to have answered. And so what I

did, I was displaying an in app
survey, five minutes after they

created an account, asking two
simple questions. Just for

context like dog parsers
document processing software. So

I was asking the question, how
many documents are you

processing per month? What type
of documents that you want to

process? And having the answer
of those two, those two

questions allowed me first of
all, making some kind of axial

and charts and whatever to
figure out who my customers are.

And secondly, I could identify
bigger accounts, I could say,

oh, this one looks really
interesting. I want to talk with

this guy, I want to make sure
that they are having a good

experience. And so I like I'd
worked really well. I liked the

idea. I didn't find find the
product doing that. So back then

I was basically hard coding all
this. And so I thought this

would be my next winter. I
started coding this very simple

idea. And well, one and a half
years later, I found myself with

an enormously complex enterprise
IT kind of lead qualification

solution. Nobody was asking for
literally nobody was asking. So

even though I created a couple
of companies before I did,

pretty classic beginner mistake.
And you know, the issue there

was I built a first of all the
software nobody was asking for

Secondly, a software where you
would need to have some kind of

enterprise sales process,
something I really don't like

doing, and so on and so on. So I
felt like okay, I'm kind of

stuck somewhere. Let's go back.
Let's do a kind of Piero and go

back to this initial simple idea
of showing surveys inside an

app. And this is what basically
refiners today. So throw away

like 90%, the code launched one
week before lockdown. COVID

lockdown in France, perfect
timing. Bad. Well give me some

time to like, I don't know,
like, I think this whole first

COVID months. It was good. That
software was quite, you know,

there was not much going on. So
I mean, there were other stuff

to take care of, for example,
the kits and then after, in

total, I would say two years
after starting this new project.

I was at the point where I had
significant Mr. of, I don't know

that was like one or $2,000
$1,000 per month which was for

me to sign okay. I And finally,
after two years I did it. I had

another software, which was kind
of working well, yeah, that's

the beginning of this refinery
story.

Arvid Kahl: Thanks for sharing
this thanks also for just being

honest, but both to yourself.
And to me and everybody

listening about, you know, like,
even even if you did a couple

things before and you're
successful doesn't mean you

cannot fall into same traps
again, I do make the same

mistakes. And it's probably I
don't know, maybe, maybe I just

want to ask you this. Did you
feel like you knew better, you

know, after having built two
businesses that you knew exactly

what your customers need? And
then you build it? Was that it?

Some kind of hubris? Some kind
of oh, yeah, I know better than

everybody else.

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. Okay. So
like, I mean, at that time, on

top pass, it was a third product
I had built and which became

big. And so I was like, Okay, I
found my model. I like building

software. I like the early days.
So I'm just going to continue

building one project after the
other SaaS, product, B2B SaaS

product, because I figured it
all out, I know it all. And, ya

know, what helps you what, like
the experience I have right now

definitely helps in the day to
day operations. It helps with a

lot, a lot of things I wouldn't
neglected neglected. But it

doesn't prevent you from making
stupid mistakes, it doesn't

prevent you from not finding the
MVP you're looking for. And it

really reminded me that going
from zero to something is just

so hard, and you need to have
luck. And you need to have good

timing, and you need to exert a
lot of things checked to be

there. Once you have something
in your hand, which I've

mentioned before, like one to
$2,000 Mr. Then I think it's

much much more about execution.
But before that, it's some kind

of like magic. Where are you?
Yeah. Well, some everybody

that's different. But

Arvid Kahl: yeah, that's that's
an interesting point. Once you

have something, not only is it
is it just about execution at

that point, but it's never just
about anything, right? If they

you know, entrepreneurship is
everything at the same time. But

if you have something, not only
can you actually put more energy

into what you know, works, we
can also show it to other people

and make other people
interested. And I think you did

that, right. Because for your
first products, you only really

put your own money into this.
You just use your own funds. And

that was it. But for refiner,
you went a different route. Do

you want to explain a little bit
what you did once you reach that

point? And MRR?

Moritz Dausinger: Yes. Yeah,
just to to follow up on this.

The first one, like, I feel like
once you have something, then

that also means yeah, as you
mentioned, you can show it to

somebody and you have, most
importantly, customers. Yeah.

And once you have, once you have
10 customers or 50 customers, I

feel like the shop changes, the
job is then to listen to what

they're saying, having your own
vision as well, and trying to

match those two things. And so
I'm definitely not the guy

saying whatever the customer
says, I'm going to implement it.

It's more like whatever they
say, and it fits my products,

energy, it's maybe already on my
to do list, then I'm doing it

right. So this is why I think
it's getting not easier, but

different once you have to know
50 customers. And to follow up

on your point about what I did
once I went to the one to 2k Mr.

At that time, I already had
like, nearly two years of own

money spending and no salary put
into this company. And I felt

like I have no two choices.
Either I do that, again, like

another year without a salary on
maybe two years without a

salary. Or maybe I can get a
little bit of extra outside

funding inside his company. And
you know, like, the reason why I

never raised before was because
I didn't really like venture

capital path. You are set on
once you raise with a VC which

means seed round and series A
Series B and you basically are

promising everybody, I'm going
to build a really, really big

company and good for people who
want to do that. I didn't want

to do that. So I'd never
actually considered the VC path

something which would fit to me.
But luckily, during the last

year, there were a couple of
funds coming up which are what

they call themself bootstrapper
friendly, so you can get an

investment They definitely are
funds. So they, they want to

have a return on their
investment. But they're not

necessarily setting you up on
the path of a typical VC

startup. And so that made it
compatible to me. And so I

raised some money with com
company fund. And I actually

really, I can fool hobbies, I
don't really, I don't really

regret it, because it allowed me
to just really accelerate a

little bit like hiring
freelancers for marketing, and

also developer freelancer and
just go faster. And with not

many strings attached, they are
for sure strings attached, you

are giving away a part of your
company, right. And then the

moment you want to sell your
company, it's also you need to

give money back to them. So
you're kind of signing up that

this is becoming a bigger thing
than just like a project you

would sell for, let's say 50 or
100k. On micro acquire it,

you're kind of signing up that
you want to build a bigger thing

that that's the strings attached
to it. Yeah, but apart from

that, I was really quite happy
about that decision. Also,

because, you know, as I
mentioned before, I already put

in a lot of own money. And I
felt like if I continue doing

that, it's just becoming more
and more difficult to make

really objective decisions.
Because it's still a business,

right? It's not it's, it's a
business.

Arvid Kahl: That's what I was,
that's, that's what I'm super

interested in. Because you're
saying, like you with that

money, you can make objective
decisions. And without it, they

would have been more, I don't
know, fear driven, I guess,

which is interesting. Because
most people, whenever they talk

about raising money, they say,
Well, now I need to make

different decisions for my
investors. But that's where the

bootstrapper compatibility comes
in. Can you kind of explain,

like, the kinds of decisions
that you didn't want to make

like to kind of, you know, all
your money is in there? And now

I need to, you know, protect it.
What was that? What was driving

you at that point?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, it was
more like, putting too much on

my of my own wealth into one
project. And also, you know,

like that, I think it's really
interesting to ask the question,

when are you racing, what
wouldn't work for me, for

example, is raising money on an
idea, because then I would be

super nervous, like, oh, man,
this guy just gave me money. And

now I need to really need to
deliver and need to build

something that is working. The
moment I raised money from Tyler

from company fund, there was
already a software product,

which was working, right, it was
not profitable, but it was

working. And there was confident
enough, giving my previous

experiences with NASA SaaS
space, that I thought, okay, if

I can bring it to KMR, I
probably going to be able to

bring it to 20 or more. And so
yeah, that gave me confidence to

say, From now on, I can do that,
but I prefer doing it with

outside money than my own money.
So okay,

Arvid Kahl: that's, that is
exactly what I love about this

bootstrapper compatible model,
like, first of all, they are

compatible in terms of they
don't really interfere with your

decision making, which is
exactly what you need at that

point, right. as a, as a solo
founder, or as an indie founder,

you want to make your
independent choices, that's,

that's what you signed up for.
And the whole journey, that's

what you want. And they only
really take you on, if you've

proven that the thing you're
doing works, right. Like if you

look at tiny seed, or if you
look at the com company fund or

whatever other players in the
field exists, they all want you

to prove that you can have
customers, they need you to

already have customers before
they give you money, which is

also complete opposite of the VC
idea. They want you to just you

know, have a really disruptive
idea, and maybe some kind of

semblance of a product, if at
all, you know, like some

products don't even exist, but
our market it you know, and in

the VC space, not that there's
anything wrong with trying to

disrupt the world. It's also
interesting, right as a business

approach, but I think in terms
of what we are doing as people

who want to build, and I mean,
it's in the best sense of the

word, a lifestyle business, a
business that allows us to live

the way we want to live. Having
somebody who can support us,

like that is great. And I I have
to I have to mention it. I have

a podcast with Tyler, where
we're building stuff together.

So obviously, I'm not gonna
badmouth the idea of the comm

company fund here. Also being an
investor in the fund. And also

knowing that both you and me and
Tyler we all sold our businesses

to the same private equity
company. It's a big family,

right like and that's that's
what I kind of love about the

fund. Like it was initially
called earnest capital when he

started and then he renamed it
to the Kong company Fund, which

I think is a much better name.
It comes from a place where

people really understand what
the kind of business stead we

want to build is about right,
both Tyler and the mentors and

the investors in the fund. We
all are effectively solopreneur

or really small indie business
owners or have been because we

sold our businesses, right. So
we know exactly what this field

is about. And I'm really happy
you got some, some funding for

refiner, because apparently it
helped you pretty well, right?

Like, I was looking pretty good.

Moritz Dausinger: It did. And
you know, like, I think, I can't

really remember the, I think you
can put it like that, like, it's

really about math, the count
company fund on similar funds,

assume that eight out of 10
investments will work out. And

which is the opposite to the VC
model, where it's basically two

out of 10 will work out and the
rest, maybe not. And I'm not

saying this one is better, this
one is better, I can just say

this one is more compatible with
me as more words as somebody who

likes building software
products, and like, organizing

my days, the way I want to and
so yeah, I'm happy that I took

that. And, like, really, what it
really did is that I switched a

little bit my mindset, you know,
I was hiring, was able to hire

freelancers in advance, like,
you know, like, you're not

profitable yet. But you can burn
more money. This is typical,

three points, and all the
startups have that they can just

burn, burn, burn money, and I
held it. It's really sweet. It's

really good. But you you Yeah,
after half a year or one year,

you're like, oh, wow, I already
spent half of it what? So you

need to be careful with it. But
it did really help in terms of

product development, and in and
marketing because SEO like

content is one of the big
drivers for a refiner. And it's

a long term game, you know,
like, you need to invest a long

time period of time. It's not
something where you can just put

down like 500 euros, and the
next week, you're going to see

results. You need to start
early. And you need to do it

good. And it will cost some
money. And a lot of this money

went into that. And so yeah,
that wouldn't have happened

without investment. Yeah.

Arvid Kahl: Well, that's good to
know. I'm reminded, as you're

talking about, like, who you
hired and the freelancers that

are working for you, I reminded
a talk that Rob walling was just

giving at MicroConf in Denver a
couple months ago, he talks

about the first hires that every
SaaS B2B SaaS business should be

doing. And I do wonder, in your
particular case, what is the

order of people that you hired
in, in the sense of that you

hired for part time or full time
or even just projects? What

order of jobs did you need to
hire out?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So I
don't want to make a rule out of

that, and I exploring things as
I go. But I can just say what I

did. For the early iteration of
the early product, I hired

website designer to make it look
good. So that I have a nice

website, I did the product
myself entirely. So I was lucky

enough that I could code and
build some kind of UI, which is

not too crazy ugly. But you need
to see that my product has an

visual part of it. It's the
surveys. And these ones were

also designed by a designer. So
I was able to get a good looking

product, which was kind of
important for for my business.

Next thing was marketing. Like,
as I said, the SEO person. Its

power from smashing copy, which
I really recommend. And after

that, it was a developer,
another marketing person. Today,

we having also that mobile
surveys of app to mobile

developers, a salesperson in
Paris. She's doing basically

following up and building up a
process around bigger customers

so that they because they have
special needs to get on boarded.

And who else that's about it.
Yeah.

Arvid Kahl: That just that list
alone raises so many questions

for me, but I'm trying to
constrain myself to one at a

time. First one, how was it hard
to hire developers for you?

Because I felt that so strongly
to hire somebody that was

supposed to do my work as good
as I did it. How was that for

you?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, no,
like, really, really difficult

when you're a technical founder.
And so I was super lucky to find

Ben. He's also active on
Twitter. Digital trouble is his

handle He was over, he is a
senior person I can trust.

Nevertheless, you need to do a
lot of specs, you need to really

write that down into detail
because nobody knows your

product better than you do. And
secondly, there are parts on the

products, I think are good for
outsourcing. And then there are

other parts where I'm basically
like, okay, no, I'm the best fit

for this particular part of the
product. If one day, I'm in the

position to hire a full time
employee who is just doing that,

for sure you're going to take
over, but for right for right

now, these are the parts I'm
handling. And these are parts,

for example, in our case, then
coded the entire dashboard

section where you could build
your own custom reporting

dashboards, like adding a chart
and resizing and removing, it

was really a nice project apart,
which didn't interfere with all

the rest of the software. So
that was basically my approach.

Or they would say, No, I can't
go outsource all of it. But

there are definitely still
things I can outsource. And even

then it's even then if you have
a really good person, it's so

difficult to have the coding
standards, right? To make it so

that if I mean, for me, it's
really important that the code

base is kind of uniform, you
know, like, if one day somebody

else is gonna take over, they
will find your way because

everything is done the same way,
which I value more than the

perfect way, you know, it might
not be perfect, but at least

it's a way for you. So there's a
system to it. And all this kind

of stuff is really getting more
more difficult, more, the more

people you're putting on the
project. And yeah, so that's the

answer of your first question. I
think some things you can

outsource some things I'm not
eager to.

Arvid Kahl: Man, that is, that's
a great answer, like to know

what you need to still do. And
to to also let go of the things

that I bet you could do it
because you have to until you

hire somebody for it. So how
much of your day do you still

spend coding compared to the all
the other things you have to do

as a founder,

Moritz Dausinger: right now,
close to zero, because and I'm

saying this with a sad face. For
those who are not watching, but

listening, now I really I really
like holding like a, but I know

that for the business, I am
spending a lot of time

onboarding new customers, I'm
spending a lot of time doing

admin stuff like paying bills
and paying me are paying

contractors paying moving money
around and and like, for

example, also with the bigger
accounts, there's also always

legal questions, and there's
just so much stuff to do. So no,

unfortunately, I'm not coding
much these days. And Nick, one

of the next things on my list
would be also to hire somebody

for exactly this the technical
support, I call it like, it's

not just supporting the way of,
Oh, where do I change my

password, it's more like a
customer. So customer success

person who really takes the new
customer by their hand and make

sure that they get the most of
the solution. And I think this

will free up a lot of time. Once
I find the right person to do

so. Because yeah, right now,
it's really like, less fun than

before. Let's say like, before,
there was a lot of coding and

new features and whatever. And
right now it's more like showing

up every day and getting the
stuff moving. It's part of the

game, right?

Arvid Kahl: You can't run a
business without operations,

right? You still need to make
thing make things happen. But I

was talking to Tyler about this
on our podcast, he was kind of

bringing it up because he has
been talking to a lot of

founders, obviously in the fund.
And he heard from a lot of them

that they just want to be
contributors to their own

projects, they still want to
contribute. They want to be an

individual contributor to the
codebase to the actual product,

and often they can't really find
it. So find the time to do it.

Because there's so much so much
else to do. So what you're doing

right now, I think is very
important to even be aware of

that just because the business
necessitates all this extra

work, doesn't mean that you
cannot find somebody to do it

for you. Right? You are not the
only person who can. So I'm glad

you are you're already thinking
through how you can get that

work, offloaded to somebody else
so you can be best at what

you're at, which seems to be
coding at least.

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. And I
mean, I think it's a real real

issue and what we've been
probably it's so rare that you

find somebody who's good in the
beginning of building a company

where you need to do well you
need to contribute, and then he

kind of switches to Like the
brothers of stripe, they are

coders. And then there's they
switched at a certain point into

conquering the world. Like, I
mean, you don't do that by

continuing coding, I guess you
do that by hiring the right

people having the right strategy
and so on. And honestly, it's, I

mean, maybe sounds a little bit
self limiting, but I'm, I'm kind

of feeling good in this early
stage world where I'm still

contributing a lot. And I'm
curious how far we're gonna go,

this time, we'll be finer. But
um, it's not something I'm

feeling pulled towards to say,
oh, I really want to be managing

100 People in two years, it's
really not something I'm having

my hands on. I'm waking up in
the morning, it's more like, Oh,

I think we should probably
develop this. And that because I

feel like that would be a good
fit for the product. I'm more in

this world still. Again, maybe
we talk in five years, and then

I'm telling you a different
story. But right now today, I'm

on this mindset that I am
showing building products and

companies. And let's see how big
we are growing. But let's see

about that. It does

Arvid Kahl: remind me not about
like five years in the future,

because who knows what's gonna
happen then. But it does remind

me of five years in the past
when I was listening to you on

the 24th episode of indie
hackers, and you know, the, the

mentality you had back then
kinda sounds like the mentality

you have today. You want to
build interesting stuff. And you

want to grow it to a point where
you still enjoy building it,

right? So maybe let's let's talk
about male parser. And Doc

parser. You You did sell them at
some point you did get acquired.

I do wonder why that is because
you know, like, we all either we

want to sell, or we want to
build something for life. Can

you explain to me maybe like the
process of how you figured out

that you can and wanted to sell
a business in the first place?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So when
I started building, may parser,

it was meant to be a fun side
project, were actually really

not having any ambition there. I
was working for startups studio.

And Paris, a very well known
startups, we're really having

the best job in the world. It
was it's called the founders.

It's really where everybody
wants to work. And I was able to

work there. So I had a great job
there. And yeah, but I still

built a software, and then it
kind of took its own life. And

then there was this moment where
I had 5k M R on the side

project, and pretty much the
same in the salary. And I needed

to decide where is this going.
And I decided I want to give it

a try. I want to see how far I
can go. And at that time, I also

read the website, and a website
about Fe International, which

was a business broker. And I was
like, what does this exist a

business broker? Like, like a
real estate broker, but somebody

was just selling online estates?
And I was like, super fascinated

by that. And then yeah, somehow
I saw, okay, what if you, if you

bring it to this kind of Mr. You
can sell it for this amount of

money. And, well, it became
interesting as an idea. And

then, yeah, by discovering this
whole world that this idea was a

little bit set in my head to
say, okay, maybe I can bring it

to a point where I can sell it.
And, you know, like people

always referring to this life
changing money or whatever. But

sorry to say, but was kind of
true. It allowed us to do a big

down payment for an apartment,
and secure myself as a

entrepreneur in a way of, like,
having, like, first of all, more

self confidence in the dome,
like, okay, apparently what I'm

doing, I'm doing it correctly.
Secondly, most of my apartment

in one of the most expensive
cities in Europe is already

paid. That's good. And if I can
do it once, maybe I can do it

twice. So it was really it was
not the sense of now I'm buying

big watches in cars and
whatever. Not at all. It was

just like, giving me some kind
of peace of mind and security in

life. And yeah, so that was
really attractive as an idea and

that's why I sold a parser. And
at the same time, back then I

had created doc parser, which
was kind of a sister product.

And Kevin, the buyer of May
parser. From Joseph capital,

back then. Agreed that I could
continue building up the parser

and selling me parser to him.
And it was basically win-win

Basically a win win situation,
because what I like to do is

building up stuff. And what he
likes to do is buying stuff that

is already big. I told him that,
let's let him do it. So I

continued working on doc parser.
And once I feel it's time is

ready and go, we both agree that
time is ready, I would have, he

would have right of first
refusal. So he is not obliged to

buy but he can buy it. And this
is how it happened. And so these

two were basically well, two
different products, two

different adventures. But one
story, right?

Arvid Kahl: That's awesome. It's
nice to build that connection to

the thing you're just saying
with Kevin, that is that is

important, right? Because in
this space, even though there's

a lot of competition among funds
and private equity companies, it

is nice to know somebody that
you can trust. I very, very

fondly remember our first
interaction like around the time

that we were trying to sell
panda our business. And also

we're looking at chose Swift.
And I did a lot of outreach to

people like you and Tyler people
who had sold their businesses

before, just to make sure that
there's a relationship that I

can actually trust with these
people, because you said it life

changing amounts of money. And
that is scary, right? It's scary

to deal with something that is
so valuable, your thing, they

even get to look into it, they
look into your p&l, they look

into your you know, all your
documents, your cash flow, and

maybe even your database or
something right, you, you have

to be really protective. So
knowing that you already have

somebody you can trust, and sell
this next thing to probably give

you a very different, or at
least a more secure feeling in

building that business. Is that
right?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah,
definitely. Like I mean, the

first one I sold through Fe
International. Because of that,

because I didn't know anyone. I
mean, yeah, you could I could

have probably send out an email
or Twitter tweet, I want to sell

this thing, give me give me your
offers. But as you said, You did

so it's so scary, you're scary,
you're scared to mess it up. And

you're scared to have this once
in a life opportunity to sell

something valuable. And you
might end up with somebody who

tells you the giving you a super
high price and whatever. But in

the end, it's just gonna go
really sideways, and then you're

having a lot of trouble. And
this is why I worked with EF

International in the beginning.
And then on the second one, I

already knew Kevin knew he's a
stand up guy and his word and

virtual handshake, if we didn't
do the handshake really is worth

as I don't know how to say it's
worth something a lot. Yeah, I

have, you know, like, just a
funny story. He's actually in

Paris next week for a personal
trip. And we are planning to

meet because, well, we kind of
kept the contact and became

friends more or less. And, you
know, like, that's just really

nice, you know, like that you
can keep those relationships

over a long period of time and
build up trust and all those

kind of things. And then also
have a good time as some dudes

walking around in the city and
talking about life. So that's

pretty good.

Arvid Kahl: I'm happy to hear
that I have the same

relationship with Kevin. I mean,
not exactly the same, obviously.

But we still talk to I actually,
when this episode comes out,

it's Kevin's episode will be the
one before this because I just

talked to him. Right. So we we
just chat all the time. And we

even like this official public
conversation still, because we

both have a lot that we want to
share and talk about in public.

And you're doing this now to I'm
really happy about this, which

kind of brings me to my next
thought you're not very active

on Twitter, at least not in the
moment. But I see you sharing

all this stuff right here and
you've written about it, you've

obviously went on podcasts and
you are on podcasts? Are you

kind of getting back into the
kind of building and public game

into sharing your story is
that's what's happening or is it

just like a fluke right now

Moritz Dausinger: it is not,
let's say different. I made a

break from it. Like I was much
more active on Twitter. Up

until, I don't know, maybe one
and a half years ago, one year

ago, and there was no real
reason or real event or whatever

big decision I just kind of, I
don't know posted less than less

and then you know, like, fell
like I mean this kind of stuff.

You don't need to you either you
want to do it or you don't want

to do it right if you don't want
to do it. There's no no reason

doing it. And but yeah,
definitely a couple of weeks

ago, I felt like, Okay, why not
go on podcasts again, that was

always something I really
enjoyed doing. Because it's much

deeper and much more, there's
much more context in it. And so

I was got contacted by one guy
from Germany. It's a German

bootstrapper. Podcast, happy
bootstrapping, as you're talking

German listened to a really nice
guy. And yeah, I liked it. And I

thought why not do a little bit
more? Because sharing is

important. And it's not really
sure. I mean, sure, it's nice to

be invited somewhere and then
talk and it's nice for the ego

and whatever. But I wouldn't be
where I am, without all those

blog posts, spending hours and
hours on Hacker News back then,

and indie hackers and Twitter,
and this is basically the

university. I mean, I did study
stuff, but I studied other

stuff, different things, right.
Everything I did, I'm doing

today, I basically learn through
that. So I felt like, it always

sounds a little bit cheesy, but
I feel like it's the right thing

to share and give back.

Arvid Kahl: 100%. That's, that's
why I'm here. And I guess it's

also why you're here. So it's
the perfect example. And I told

you this in the beginning, if it
wasn't for you, I don't know.

Like I you know, I don't know
what would have happened because

when Kevin reached out to us,
and we had shared like our MRR

numbers or stripe numbers on
indie hackers, we've kind of

plucked that in. So he found us
through indie hackers, and then

reach out to us through an
email. I knew exactly who he

was. And you did that you did
that for him. And you did that

for me, right? You connected us
without even knowing that you

were connecting us in some
future scenario. And I think

that's what at least teaching in
public, which is what you're

currently doing here with me
right today. That is what that

can do it on such a massive
scale. And like prior to hitting

the record button, we were
talking about this, like the

indie hackers scene has grown so
much right? Over the last couple

of years. When you were in
Episode 24, it was still kind of

a niche podcast. And now look at
the indie hackers podcast and

look at startups for the rest of
us or other like podcasts in the

space that have been going on
for years, if not almost decades

at this point. Isn't that
wonderful? I just I don't know,

I just want to be share my
gratitude for people like you

who were there from the start
and sharing their story. And I

think it's important. So I can
only recommend like doing more

of this and also sharing more on
Twitter, because I think you

have you have a lot of pool, you
have a lot of people following

you. And you have a lot of
interesting insights to share

from running a business.

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, and I
feel like I mean, there's always

like let's say like this, I'm
very convinced like every

journey is different. And you
know, when I'm sometimes I'm

doing mentoring sessions in a
night, once this situation where

I was telling somebody,
something, and then after you

later they told me, Well, half a
year later, you told me that and

it didn't work. And I was like,
Yeah, I don't know. Like, I just

said stuff, which worked for me.
And I feel so I feel like you

need to be really responsible in
how you teach and how you share

things. And again, I can just
tell my story. I can. I'm 100%

sure that any hacker who's
starting today has maybe more

thing, more opportunities, but
maybe it's also more difficult.

I don't know like it's
different. And different. Yeah,

that's so the I think there's a
very how to say it. Like, you

need to be careful not to put
yourself there as the Google

understood everything and look
at me, like with refiner I had,

it was the fourth product. I was
building the fourth startup. And

I was convinced I was having an
easy time just executing

whatever. And no, it didn't
happen. And so yeah, teaching

great. But for all people just
starting out, every be be be

mindful about that. Every story
is different than when we both

started when we both sold our
company. It was a different

time. And sounds really like old
dudes. On the radio. It's kind

of true. Yeah, that's right.
Different time.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, it's and
you're 100% Right. Like all

advice is anecdotal. Like, it's
all just a story and experience

that you have, and no advice is
ever completely copyable in

different circumstances. I 100%
agree. And you're right. In a

way, it's not even teaching.
It's just sharing. It's just

sharing a journey. It's just
giving people just insights into

what happened. Why you think it
happened, not why it happened.

Because you never really know.
Right? But while you have a

strong sense that it happened
for a reason, and then that's

all you can do, and people have
to pull from that what they what

they want to learn and I love
this. That's why I've been

asking you questions not really,
for you to give me answers on

how to do it. But more answers
on how you did it. And I, I feel

you're doing one other thing.
And I kind of want to get back

to this because as myself a
coder as well, a technical

person. And knowing that many
people listening to this are

engineers with, you know, not
too much patience for marketing

or for sales, but they they do
want to build, they do want to

make things you're doing
something with refined art is

really cool. And you kind of
make your documentation for your

product, kind of a first class
citizen of the product. And I'm

going to kind of ask you like,
how, how did that come to be?

Why is that? And how do you keep
this not just an add on but like

a core part of your product?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, very
interesting. Because when I look

back at the products I was
building, they kind of reflect

me as a person in the way that
they are technical. My audience,

the users who are using my
products like 1password, Doc pas

and refiner, at least tech savvy
people, they're not coders, but

technical people who like that
about the software who like that

they have lots of options to
customize everything really the

way they want to. And so the
type of products, building our

but I'm not, I don't want to say
complex because complex sounds

difficult, I want them to be
super easy. Let's say they are

powerful. And with that comes
also options and customizations

and all those kinds of things.
And I feel like if I would not

have a really top notch
documentation, I would, that

wouldn't fit, right. That would
feel weird in a way. And

sometimes I've witnessed that
with products, they have a

beautiful website, like really
shiny, super nice, well made

website, you sign up. And then
it's already a little bit, not

so beautiful, the software. And
then you realize that it's super

disappointing, because there's
not much functionality,

functionality, or it's super
complex, or whatever. And I

don't like this journey. I
rather prefer having a good

website, a good product and a
good documentation and standard

high. And so So I felt like for
the type of product I'm building

and the audience I'm having, I'm
kind of it's my job to say,

look, you can do a lot of stuff
with this software. It's quite

powerful. And I get it, it's
maybe not obvious to you. But

it's obvious to me because I
built that. But it's definitely

not obvious to you because
you're using it for the first

time. Here's the documentation,
I'm trying my best that it's

good for you, which then makes
my life easier as well. Because

I feel like with every user
who's finding their answer in

the documentation, I have one
more one less email to take care

of.

Arvid Kahl: Interesting. So it's
kind of it is helping you

reducing customer service load
because people kind of help

themselves. That that does
remind me you were saying in the

beginning that the thing you
built that didn't go anywhere

initially for refiner was very
like enterprise, the sales heavy

or it focused at that. I guess
now what you've been building is

more of a low touch kind of
SaaS. Do you think it I know,

it's still both. And that is an
interesting thing. We'd like to

know how you bridge this, like
how you build a business that is

both low touch SaaS ish. And,
you know, high touch sales. But

what I'm also interested in, as
we are still at documentation,

do you think like having a good
documentation is actually a

beneficial part of your sales
process? Both in low touch and

and high touch? Like how does it
fit into this kind of dichotomy

of sales?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, that's a
really a lot of good, good

points in there. So when I
started out, I started as

product for startups starting at
$39 per month. And I over the

time, it's so obvious, once you
know it, once you see it, it's

so obvious, but then I didn't
see it all the time, I realized,

actually, companies who are
getting the most value out of my

product are bigger. They're not
early stage startups, because if

you to get value out of surveys,
you need to have either a lot of

users, and I'm talking like
1000s, and not to hundreds. Or

end or you have a team, which is
so big that like opinions or gut

feeling is not counting that
much anymore. So basically, you

you're having you think like,
you know, like early day or

early stage founders, often
driven by gut feeling and

talking with the users. And then
it's like, less about really

like hard numbers. And this
works really well and I'm still

doing this, you know, like I'm
still at that point. But once

you're becoming a bigger
company, then you want to have

some proof before you start the
machine of implementing

something. And this is when
surveys can really, really get

you a lot Have peace of mind,
actually. And so I realized that

the best customers in the sense
of they are getting the most

value out of it. More like
established startups with

attraction, or even scale ups,
or b2c marketplaces, all these

these kind of software
companies. And with this

realization came also going with
the prices up. And so today the

small price starts at 79, if you
pay the yearly, but more like

99, if you pay monthly, and I
mean, they're their customers

paying more than 1000 per month,
like it's really like a spend,

which is I would call on maybe
not already mid market, but But

yeah, definitely not in the
hackers, no, and no early stage

startups, or just a sum of them.
And with this knowledge came

also the realization that on the
upper end, they cannot go search

service, they they cannot go low
touch. I mean, even if they tell

me, oh, look, I created an
account, I understand the

software, I know what to do,
they still need to go through

legal, they still need to pay
invoices, on a yearly basis,

they still want to have a
signature on the terms of

service, they still want to have
on security audit, and so on and

so on. So even if my user, the
one who is signing up would like

just to put in his credit card
and be done with it, they can't

do that, because they're in a
bigger company where they have

other processes. And this is
where my colleague flurry comes

in, where she is basically, for
these kinds of customers, some

kind of project manager, driving
the project, project forward,

following up talking with
different stakeholders and so

on. This is why I'm having this
dual model. If it was up to me,

let's do low touch, right? I
mean, there's just this reality,

if you buy if you sell to, if
you sell to banks or whatever.

That's not how it works, right?
So yeah, and this is why you can

do both. And some, sometimes
people are like, oh, I need to

decide whether low touch or
sales as sales driven. And I

feel like yeah, all have it. Our
customers like it like this, and

their customers like that. And
some people like to try it. Some

people like to talk some people
like to whatever. And then if

you want to grow your business,
then do all of it, right?

Arvid Kahl: Do you see a
tendency? Like do you see a move

more towards enterprise over
time or like a shot someone?

Moritz Dausinger: Right now it's
quite stable, actually, they go

feel like would need to look it
up, I would say 1/3, custom

contracts, custom pricing to a
third is credit card. As is

like.

Arvid Kahl: That's I think like
that, that immediately makes me

think of technical
implementation of that kind of

pricing structure. I don't want
to dive into it too much. But

I'm thinking, if this is what
can happen to a business, it

makes a lot of sense to think of
your pricing structure, when you

start building your business is
something very flexible, right?

Like, how did you how did you
think about this? Like, how did

you build?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah, there
was actually one pivotal point

title, I don't know how to say
it. But Pivotal, exactly. In the

beginning, I was charging based
on survey responses. The more

survey responses you collect per
month, the more you pay me,

didn't work out, because there
were a huge companies which were

which were synchronizing all
their user data to me. So I was

like, crunching a lot of user
data just to have like 50

responses, because they just
wanted to serve a really tiny

segment of the user base. So I
switched the model to what I

call monthly of what what is
called, commonly called monthly

active users. So the more users
you are having, the more data

you're synchronizing with my
app, the more you need to pay,

which is kind of a better proxy
for how much value you're

actually also getting out of the
software. And this kind of stuff

is baked in into the code in
this in a way that I have an

admin back end where I can for
each account, say this is their

quarter, then and also have
feature flags, for example, they

can access the translation
feature, they can do this and

this and this. And the way
technically it is done is like

somebody on a normal plan on the
essential to growth plan will

have by default, all the
settings as written in my config

file, but I can go in and
override them. And then there's

this one special plan which is
called the Enterprise plan and

there it's based Usually, the
default settings are really

generous. And I can still also
go in and override for every

account to thing. And then on
the billing side I using I'm

using charge B, which also
allows me to set for every

customer on the Enterprise plan,
a custom amount. And so this is

where you see comes also this
all about automation before,

that I'm dealing with invoices
and stuff all day long. And the

downside is really like the
bigger customers. It's so nice

if you have suddenly like $500
Mr. On top, because there's this

one new customer, but this
customer needs to have a new

invoice in one year. So
whichever reminder in one year,

you're going to send it and you
need to send a couple of weeks

before because they takes them
some time. And so yeah, there

comes the ops complexity.

Arvid Kahl: I guess it's worth
it. Right. That's that's kind of

what I'm hearing I keep these
big customers that their value

metric is pretty, pretty
scalable. I do wonder how much

does this cost to run? Because
if you ingest all this data, you

kind of have to have some kind
of cloud hosting and all that.

Is that manageable? Like how do
you manage that cost down?

Moritz Dausinger: It is an
issue, right? So my approach to

the past was always, as a tiny
team, I'm happy to pay more to

AWS for managed services, Manage
Database, manage queuing, all

the you know, the SQS, the s3,
the RDS, it's such a really, if

you just it just it's just
running. And well, there's a

price to it. And the price is
now becoming so big that I could

actually basically hire
somebody. Maybe not full time.

But I could definitely spend
some money on somebody who can

help me putting all this on bare
metal and let it run for her

know, maybe 1/10 of the cost.
Because right now I'm at the

point where I'm between 15 and
20% of the Mr. Which goes

straight to AWS. And I know that
in the past, it was more like

for my other businesses like
five to 10, which I don't know

if there's a benchmark out
there, but I know there are lots

of very, very successful
businesses which are paying a

couple of $100 per month. So the
the cost for me right now is

like really one of the it's
definitely a topic and with 20%

of your MRR going straight to
the hosting provider. It's

painful. Yeah.

Arvid Kahl: Oh, yeah, that is
expensive. It does remind me of

what we did with Vita panda.
Because we did hosted database,

like my managed database stuff
as well. I think we paid like it

when we sold. We had 55,000 and
MRR and I think at least 5000 of

that was an expense just purely
to I think Mongo HQ was the name

of it composed was so was later
bought by bought by IBM at some

point. It's just for database,
which

Moritz Dausinger: is 10% off to
present. But that was

Arvid Kahl: almost the only
expense we had. So we were good.

But you know, it's still it's
substantial. it's substantial.

And you're right at that point,
if you if you pay $5,000 a month

for something that would cost
you maybe a couple hundreds in,

like the technical expenses, you
could pay the remaining 4500 To

a person to be there all the
time and dealing with it. It's

just I always, in my own mind, I
always thought I'm paying 5000

To compose because they have a
team of 20 people that if

something goes down, it's up
again, because they're working

in shifts. If there is like a
zero day exploit somewhere, they

immediately patched a system,
you know, if a server explodes

or what wasn't that like in I
don't know if it was in France,

or something recently, where
there was this flooding into the

data center. Like if that
happens, somebody is swimming to

my server and making sure it's
still running. You know, that's

kind of what you pay for it

Moritz Dausinger: moment.
Exactly the approach that I had,

like, whatever I can the hosting
sites, give to a managed

service. And I would really
recommend that actually, like I

would definitely not recommend
trying to save 100 bucks in the

beginning and then run your own
database server and rescue

business because maybe you
misconfigured it and your

database is gone. Right. I mean,
that's risky. That's a major

risk. And yeah, but as I said
before, like right now I'm

coming to a point where I feel
like something should be done

about.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, you're right,
though. Like it's not just

misconfigured. And then it's
kind of gone because it

implodes, but also somebody
might just really get access to

all your customer data. Right.
So and the more you move into

your kind of compliance level
enterprise sales demo, you have

to be absolutely clear that the
thing you checked on their

checkbox is actually protected.
Right?

Moritz Dausinger: Yeah. So for
the audit. That's another really

big point, folks. Somebody in
the GDPR world, we are hosting

in Europe because of that. And
AWS allows us to do that.

Security wise, the data is
encrypted in transit, and also

addressed this kind of stuff,
like, yeah, you can do all this,

but I am not a DevOps engineer.
And these guys are super

expensive. And yeah, as you
said, you you're not getting

this level of riobel reliability
yourself. And this is why I'm

kind of continuing with it. And
it's already one year that I'm

saying I need to reduce the
cost. But then

Arvid Kahl: well, you'll find
you'll find the right time for

that kind of kind of brings me
to kind of the the final

question where, what are your
future plans for refiner?

where's this going? What do you
what do you plan for the next

couple years? Or do you even
have plans? I'd like to know,

Moritz Dausinger: it's a really
good question. So like, on the

product side, there are a couple
of things I could do. Because,

you know, like with refinery,
basically in the product, that

would be a web app or mobile app
where I'm displaying inside the

app survey. And a couple of
other tools exist. They are like

onboarding, tool tips, or
checklists, whatever you can,

you can do a lot of action stuff
inside an app. So I could branch

out there. There's another
opportunity where it could

branch out more into the data
crunching and maybe add a layer

of that you can also send me
product usage data, then I could

do stuff like, look, power
users, more satisfied and no

power users. And I mean, we can
do that already today with

integrations and our customers
are doing that. But I could

build that in into my product.
So there's lots of stuff I could

do. And at the same time, I'm
feeling like, well, maybe

refiner is justice, pro poor
tool thing. There's very, very

specific tool, which allows you
to do the best possible in app

survey experience. And it's fine
like that, you know, like, I'm

not really, I didn't decide on
that right now. And in terms of

the company, like, what I would
like to do, is definitely hire

support and Customer Success
people. So that this is off my

chest like because you know,
like being in the owner or like

a solo founder. And everybody
knows it, right? If there's so

much freedom, there's so much
good parts about it. But one of

the huge downside is you are
responsible all the time. And I

can right now, like when I go on
vacation, I can put it down to

like 15 to 30 minutes per day on
the good days. And so I need to

check him out in the morning.
And I'm telling myself, well,

that's fine. That's a good price
to pay for all the freedom which

comes along. But I think one of
the goals would be to be at a

point where the team is like,
really bulletproof. And I can

say, if I don't get an SMS or
phone call, I consider

everything is going fine. And I
said we're gonna go.

Arvid Kahl: Yeah, that sounds
like the perfect. It's kind of

reminds me of what John
Warrillow was saying and built a

cell, like the perfect sellable
business is a business that can

run without you where you remove
yourself from operations. So

that's kind of almost the
logical follow up questions. I

know, you're thinking about
eventually exiting the business,

is it going to be sold one day?
What do you think?

Moritz Dausinger: You know, you
never know. Right now isn't a

good time. I think now, it's not
the right time. For several

reasons, I think. Not actually
not for several reasons. It's

just not at the point where I
would like to let it go. There's

really like just so much stuff.
I can still do. I want to do.

But yeah, it's talking to us
again. Yeah, that's

Arvid Kahl: right. Yeah, that's
I think that's that's the

mentality that indie hackers
just develop at some point.

Right? We will see also, not now
maybe, depends on the offer.

Right? It's always it's always
combination of,

Moritz Dausinger: and what you
just mentioned, right? I don't

know who said it, like, maybe it
was also Kevin. A business that

is easy to run, and business,
which is easy to sell, like

basically what you just said
before, like in different words.

And it's kind of should be, I
mean, there are times where

you're pushing in times where
you're giving all you have to

make it grow as fast as
possible. And I feel like the

next step for refiner might be
this well, it's a marathon.

Let's do cool things down and
then everything can happen

right? Then I can run it for 10
more years because it's cause

Hackley. Salad, whatever

Arvid Kahl: I loved, I love the
idea of like calming it down.

Because once you're calm, you
see more things like you're not

in this kind of chaotic panic
mode, because every fire needs

to be doused immediately right
but you Good. Okay, now this is

a way I could go or let's just
slightly move over here. I think

that is exactly right. I'm, I'm
super pumped to just follow your

journey along. And I, I
certainly hope you're going to

be more active on Twitter, I'm
going to try and follow you on

every podcast you go at any
point, obviously, but I would

love to see you share more of
this because I think the journey

of a business that had to pivot
like 18 months in and is now

profitable, and then growing and
finding enterprise customers,

that is a story that is eight
super successful compared to

many other people's stories,
even though you might feel like

you're still in the middle of
it, but just look at it from

somebody who has nothing, right.
This is a glowing example of how

it could look like. And it's
something that I just want to

see these little steps that you
take off, I want to see, what

are you trying here? Are you are
you branching out to, you know,

your tooltip kind of onboarding
thing? Or are you actually

focusing on just being the
product that does this? This is

exciting for me to just follow
along the journey. So I would

love for you to do this. And
that brings me to my last

question. Where can people find
more about you? And where can

they follow that journey that I
just promised them.

Moritz Dausinger: So as I'm now
restarting to use, Twitter is

the best place definitely like,
I feel like it's for me, it's

still the place where I can,
most easily and most freely, to

speak my mind about the
business. And I'm, you know,

like, also Twitter is for me,
like pure business. I'm not

really. I'm not sharing personal
stuff there. So yeah, please go

to Twitter and Dow Zinger. I
guess even a LinkedIn up. And I

promise, I promise I will be
more active there.

Arvid Kahl: I don't I don't want
to put you on the spot. But I

would love to see it because I
think the community can benefit

so much from you. I think they
already have I certainly have.

And again to bring this to a
close. Thank you so much for

everything you have done over
the last six years in being

there for people sharing your
story, sharing your knowledge,

and for keeping hopefully
keeping keeping at it and

keeping sharing your story,
which was a wonderful

conversation. Thank you so much
for being on the show.

Moritz Dausinger: It's my
pleasure and really mean it and

thank you for inviting me.

Arvid Kahl: Absolutely. Thank
you.

And that's it for today. Thank
you for listening to The

Bootstrapped Founder. You can
find me on Twitter, if Twitter

is still there, @arvidkahl. You
find my books and my Twitter

course there as well. And if you
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Any of this, will really really
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much for listening and have a
wonderful day. Bye bye